update on the 03 ss
#11
01-12-2016, 08:37 PM
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mentor, Ohio
Posts: 12,217
If I recall, you had a lot of issues with your car after some performance upgrades and such. I think it's great to hear you have a direction that you are happy with.
Don't mind everyone chiming in with some input about your build. Keep in mind, people like Turbo, Bumpin' and Zippy have been in the performance game for years with this drive train. I don't think anyone is trying to rain on your parade, they are just offering some of what they know based on what lead them to their builds.
As Bumpin pretty much mentioned, many people and performance shops that specialized in the 3800 have pioneered a lot of for this platform (lots of R&D and track time behind it). ZZP made their name on the 3800 and then began specializing in other platforms since GM discontinued the 3800.
But remember, this does not mean there is not a new approach or something new to pioneer for it.
And also remember, unless you are going to copy an exact performance build that has already been proven, everyone has a different approach. Just keep in mind, when you are not following an already proven solution, you may find there is more then you originally planned for (it's all part of the performance building game).
At the end of the day, the question is "are YOU happy with it?" and if the answer is yes, then that's what counts.
Keep us updated how everything shakes out.
Don't mind everyone chiming in with some input about your build. Keep in mind, people like Turbo, Bumpin' and Zippy have been in the performance game for years with this drive train. I don't think anyone is trying to rain on your parade, they are just offering some of what they know based on what lead them to their builds.
As Bumpin pretty much mentioned, many people and performance shops that specialized in the 3800 have pioneered a lot of for this platform (lots of R&D and track time behind it). ZZP made their name on the 3800 and then began specializing in other platforms since GM discontinued the 3800.
But remember, this does not mean there is not a new approach or something new to pioneer for it.
And also remember, unless you are going to copy an exact performance build that has already been proven, everyone has a different approach. Just keep in mind, when you are not following an already proven solution, you may find there is more then you originally planned for (it's all part of the performance building game).
At the end of the day, the question is "are YOU happy with it?" and if the answer is yes, then that's what counts.
Keep us updated how everything shakes out.
#12
01-12-2016, 08:47 PM
They actually do still sell the stage 3 ported iron heads. Like many types of products, the current head lineup is set up in a good/better/best layout. They've got the CNC heads that are the cheapest (that replaced all of the lower stage heads due to their low production cost and reasonable gains), the ported iron heads in the middle, and the aluminum heads on top. I'm not at all promoting their specific products, they're just one of a very small handful of shops that truly know the 3800 and have proven 3800 performance. That's not to say that any race shop couldn't do an ok job as well, but only a few shops have really pushed the limits of the 3800s and really know what works best from experience on this specific engine. What works best for a race shop on a BBC, or an LS engine doesn't necessarily work best on the 3800. That's easily evidenced by how many people had issues with race shop 3800 rebuilds blowing up back in the earlier days.
I imagine the ported heads and aluminum heads aren't crazy huge volume sellers anymore, mostly due to the current market. Turbo kits are the mod of choice for bang for the buck on big power setups. You don't need crazy heads to make good power with them, unless you're looking at an all out setup and have money to burn. Beyond that, the l67 cars themselves are getting super cheap. Not many people are willing to drop $2k on heads for a $2k car. I bet high mileage 97s/98s are probably even cheaper than that nowadays. I imagine soon we'll start seeing the product offerings consolidate down into fewer choices.
The main reason I mention previous records is because there have been thousands of m90 builds. The 3800 is awesome in that respect because you can follow simple build recipes that are known to make power. Given a certain cam, you can find out what combination has worked best to make the most power. You can skip all the iterations on parts and buy what is proven to work, then tinker from there to try and get more out of it.
Certainly, it's your choice if you want to ignore what others have done and go at it on your own to figure out what works with your race shop. In the end, the trial and error will be more expensive, and there is a good chance that you won't make as much power as you could have. Youd be surprised at how many crazy things have been tried in the past, and all of those results are sitting out there for free of you just want to take the time to look into it. I'm not at all trying to upset you, I've just seen race shops lead people astray in the past because they weren't familiar with the platform. Although the general concepts of engine performance are the same, it's impossible for a shop to know all of the intricacies of each engine without having done a bunch of work with them.
On a side note, I was thinking about what you're trying to do with dual ic pumps and wanting the coldest water to both cores. Instead of running dual lines all the way up, why not just do a Y split right before the core inlets? The inlets on the SSICs are pretty small, so you could run one larger feed hose fed from one normal pump, split it right up front, and then have another Y at the outlets to bring it back to one line for the heat exchanger. That would accomplish what you're trying to do without all of the extra plumbing and parts from front to back. I'd still strongly suggest you look at your HE if you're really concerned about heat soak though.
I imagine the ported heads and aluminum heads aren't crazy huge volume sellers anymore, mostly due to the current market. Turbo kits are the mod of choice for bang for the buck on big power setups. You don't need crazy heads to make good power with them, unless you're looking at an all out setup and have money to burn. Beyond that, the l67 cars themselves are getting super cheap. Not many people are willing to drop $2k on heads for a $2k car. I bet high mileage 97s/98s are probably even cheaper than that nowadays. I imagine soon we'll start seeing the product offerings consolidate down into fewer choices.
The main reason I mention previous records is because there have been thousands of m90 builds. The 3800 is awesome in that respect because you can follow simple build recipes that are known to make power. Given a certain cam, you can find out what combination has worked best to make the most power. You can skip all the iterations on parts and buy what is proven to work, then tinker from there to try and get more out of it.
Certainly, it's your choice if you want to ignore what others have done and go at it on your own to figure out what works with your race shop. In the end, the trial and error will be more expensive, and there is a good chance that you won't make as much power as you could have. Youd be surprised at how many crazy things have been tried in the past, and all of those results are sitting out there for free of you just want to take the time to look into it. I'm not at all trying to upset you, I've just seen race shops lead people astray in the past because they weren't familiar with the platform. Although the general concepts of engine performance are the same, it's impossible for a shop to know all of the intricacies of each engine without having done a bunch of work with them.
On a side note, I was thinking about what you're trying to do with dual ic pumps and wanting the coldest water to both cores. Instead of running dual lines all the way up, why not just do a Y split right before the core inlets? The inlets on the SSICs are pretty small, so you could run one larger feed hose fed from one normal pump, split it right up front, and then have another Y at the outlets to bring it back to one line for the heat exchanger. That would accomplish what you're trying to do without all of the extra plumbing and parts from front to back. I'd still strongly suggest you look at your HE if you're really concerned about heat soak though.
Last edited by bumpin96monte; 01-12-2016 at 09:25 PM.
#13
01-12-2016, 10:21 PM
You should flow test the heads once they do there port work. i have zzp stage 3 flow numbers, we could compare to see this shops gains with there port work! Keep us posted on dyno numbers, good luck!!
