Another question for you - did you buy your monte with the rust issues new?

It seems to me like the critical rust damage can be avoided by someone who is persistent about cleaning it - but it has to start from day 1. Someone who regularly flushes the underbody with clean water and who does an extra thorough cleaning in the spring so it doesn't sit in the nooks and crannies all year round.

If you're buying used (any car) from a salty area, you run the risk that the previous owner treated it like every almost other driver on the road and just ignored the salt. Once the rot has set it, its extremely hard to stop the process regardless how much effort you put in as - especially once the rust has got inside things.

 

Then explain why, regarding rust, that you rarely see any Impala or Malibu with rust, but Monte Carlos are just awful.

 

Nope, I was actually caught off guard. The car had very little rust, as you can note by the picture I posted. The rust pics were from the same car. would you have had a clue that it would look like that underneath? Now when I see any MC with the slightest rust at the rear fender or under the edge of the front fender at the bottom red flags go up. I just bought a 2006 MC out of Tulsa, and it was 99% clean, but the typical rust was starting to form around the right fender at the usually place. Fortunately not enough to do any real harm. How can they keep doing this?

 

If I had bought a new MC I would have headed straight to Ziebart.

 

OH, I know PLENTY of Impalas/Malibus/Grand Ams from the 2000+ era with eventual rust issues.
I live near Cleveland Ohio, we get plenty of salt on our winter roads. I have a 1984 Camaro, the previous owner used it as a daily driver and I bought it in 1998. My father, a friend of his and I eventually replaced the floor pans due to holes. I have replacement strut towers to eventually put into that car (and get rid of the make shift patches). The car has been off the road since 2002 and I hope to some day restore it. Here is my web site page about the floor pans in that Camaro:
Major-Restore: Replacement Floor Pans

As Bumpin mentioned, it can take malicious care to attempt to ward off rust issues. But even with the greatest care, some things are inevitable. I bought my 2004 blue Monte Carlo from Buffalo NY (another harsh winter spot) back in 2008. It has not been driving in winter since I bought it. Underside is VERY clean! Tiny rust bubbles that are NOTHING to get excited about. Traditional rust forming around the brake and fuel lines where the retaining brackets are. And last year, after 13 years of NO winter driving, I had one of those rust points on a brake line blow out (thank god in my driveway). I have a long thread, but I went full tilt and replaced all brake and fuel lines on the blue Monte with aftermarket, prebent stainless steel lines. I should NEVER have an issue again.

Now the intake gaskets on the 3100/3400/3800. GM *has* made changes over the years!
1. - People blame the failures on DEX. I got news, failures occurred in early 90's cars that did not use DEX (my 1994 Grand Am I had was one of many).
2. - GM was sued and lost a dex lawsuit (but GM also reformulated DEX as a result). FYI - I also know non-v6 cars that have used DEX since the 90's and never an issue.
3. - GM has had a variety of different TSBs. One being a revised gasket (still nylon).
4. - Most people will tell you to switch to the metal core gaskets offered by Fel-Pro (myself included).

Now, how much effort has GM put into these gasket issues, probably not as much as anyone would like. BUT, they have lasted longer. The early 90's was about 80-120k miles. I know someone who had NOW lower intake gasket issues on a 2000 Grand Am with a 3400 that he traded in with 250K miles (he bought it with 30k miles).

I also know the 4t65e trans has a bad rap (too many have failure issues). I also know, GM has had various revisions in the life of that trans (may not be the revisions we need, but it was their attempts to help resolve issues or reduce them and sure, I have no doubt, all on the cheaper end of the spectrum).

I read all this back and forth and all this disgruntled feelings. It is tough to impossible to change the manufacturer (unless everyone stopped buying their cars). And all the longer lasting improvements would increase the cost of the car (not just the cost of the materials/labor the manufacturer is putting into it, but they will certainly increase the cost to compensate for the car having a longer life span).
I guess the question is, how do you avoid these? How would you research the expected issues for the longevity of any car you would consider buying? What might you do to prevent issues in the course of the life of the car?

 

Down here in TN we never see those two cars with rust, and for the most part the MCs hold up pretty well. But you buy one from anywhere above KY and look out. And just like the truck problems that keep many people in a Ford laughing at those Chevys with no fenderwells, it cannot be good for business to see cars like that on the road. Now I understand if you live up north it is pretty much a given, but seems like dealerships (even we did back in the 70s in TN), would offer undercoating. We charged a whopping $25.

As far as intake gaskets, not sure why you think it is fixed. I had to do my 2005 MC at 160K (normally 145K), and of course used the O ringed Fel-Pro. But GM saved a dime, and they lasted until out of warranty. When the new Duramax came out, I was doing a tour for GM, and you could not see anything with those cute mirrors, while Ford had excellent towing mirrors. I contacted an exec, and he just laughed and said GM has a LOT of women running it now, and this is what you get. Form over function. Probably the same with the bean counters.

The bottom line is that the Impala is probably the most profitable car that GM has ever made from 2006 - 2017. Why is this? Because when people see millions of these cars still on the road it passes the longevity test. GM can't sell new cars unless someone buys the trade ins. It isn't hard to sell an Impala. I have seen them with 250K miles bring $4000. So to me it is in the best interest of them to put out a quality product that is acceptable. If I see a 2007 Monte Carlo with fenders that are eaten away to the point that it needs quarter panels with only 110K miles, I would certainly avoid a car like that and never look at one again, unless it came from the south or west. I can see a NY car doing this, but not one from Indiana.

 

Thanks for the info on the brake lines, that is comforting to know you can buy pre-bent ones in SS. Where did you get them? I know my 2005 will need them eventually.

 

I never said the intake gasket issue was fixed. I was pointing out the over the years, GM has tried to make improvements to "fix" it. Like I said, a couple different TSBs about revised gaskets and changing to Dex for example. So now instead of the gaskets failing on average of 80k-120k miles, you are deeper into the 100k range. I know someone who drove a car to 250k miles on factory intake gaskets (which blew my mind), yet, I have services mine 2004 3400 Grand Am (I did them in October of 2019 with 175k miles on the car).
Everything has a point of failure. You even mentioned your Monte intake gaskets failed at 160k. How long do you feel a gasket should last before potential failure?

I have wrenched on GM cars for years, I can point out crazy issues. Like the early 90's Grand Am heater cores had plastic inlet/outlet tubes (aftermarket replacement was steel) and the only reason those cores failed (150k or more miles) was the plastic cracked. The last generation Grand Am, the subframe rots around the connection to bolt up the steering rack, I noticed the HVAC condensation drain drips right on that spot, so I used a piece if 5/8 heater hose so the drain goes direct to ground. Two prime examples of "why would they do that", but they did and most of those cars made it 10+ years or well over 100k miles before an issue. Like at the 3800 N/A and it's plastic upper intake and the issues with it (mostly the plastic getting brittle around the EGR stove pipe and eventually leaking coolant into the intake chamber). In 2004, GM introduced a new aluminum upper intake.

As much as we might not like this, cars are intended to be consumable. They don't go on indefinitely; if they did the manufacturer would never sell enough new ones to stay in business. And the manufacturer is not going to make parts forever (I believe the manufacturer supplies parts for 10 years after the last one rolls out of the assembly line). They have to declare "end of life" on the car, just like any other product manufacture (look at Microsoft and Windows, try getting Microsoft to support your DOS, Win3.1 or Windows 95 computers --- they won't). And aftermarket vendors sometimes pick up some of this slack. BUT, I had a friend with a Kia Rondo. Cheap vehicle, fulling loaded. At 90k miles, a front coil spring broke. We thought, no big deal. Well.... It was a big deal. That cheap Kia had NO aftermarket support for something as BASIC as the front suspension. To get a NEW coil spring was buying from a dealer for $140 for the part (that does NOT include installing it on the existing strut). I can buy a full "quick strut" for my Monte or Grand Am for that price! He found a full strut assembly with spring for $90 shipped on eBay. Slammed that in, then shortly after he traded in the Rondo.

I will be honest, I feel the impression I get from your point of view is GM should be fixing every problem on these cars to ensure they last 50 years or 500k miles, which ever comes first. Reality is, if you look at these cars, 90% of them that have been well cared for lasted well over 10 years and over 100k miles without any issues (shy of routine oil changes, brake jobs and tires). This is pretty par for most manufacturers. Don't get me wrong, I would love if they all made better cars (especially ones that are harder to rust out).

 

I bought the lines from a company called InLineTubing.com. Admittedly, the rear brake lines and the fuel lines they sent me did NOT fit correct. But, I was able to send them my originals and they bent me some new ones that fit like a GLOVE! If this was a daily, I would have hand bent brake line and flared it myself. My experience, coated steel tubing from the parts stores tend to last long enough that I will be retiring the car before it fails.

Here is a thread with pics and explanations of that stainless fuel/brake line adventure. Keep in mind, this is a 2004, lived in Buffalo NY as a daily driver until I bought it in August of 2008 and brought it home (near Cleveland, Ohio). Since I have owned it, this blue Monte has NOT seen a winter road. The underside looks almost identical to what it was when I bought it in 2008 (and this thread took place last year, 2021).
https://montecarloforum.com/forum/mo...el-line-62645/

 

Don't assume you understand what I mean, and don't put words in my mouth. I simply said GM could do a better job. I have raced NHRA for more than 20 years. I understand cars, engines, etc. I know if I buy a 3.8 at some point the intakes will fail. I can live with that. I cannot live with rust. If I love a car a great deal, then I should not have to contend with this given a reasonable amount of care. Parts that keep my car on the road should be available, such as known items that fail like HVAC blend doors. I live on Ebay, trying to find parts for my 2005 and now 2006 Monte Carlo. I happen to very much like these cars, even though GM is done with them. I used to catalog for GKN, so I understand how it works regarding the process of whether to keep making a part or know there are not enough registrations to justify the expense. If I could go out today and buy a new Monte Carlo I would do it. Not too thrilled with the coupe lineup GM has to offer. So I try to keep these on the road. Seat covers fail through the attrition of getting in and out. I understand that, but find it frustrating that I cannot buy seat material (drivers seat mainly) to refurb my seat, yet I was able to buy a license plate light (maybe they made too many). I see ads on Facebook every day, which makes me laugh. One thing goes wrong on a car, and these people want to get rid of them and buy another used car, as if they don't break. My new (old) MC has 189K miles on it and runs great, other than a fast idle problem. Just got it so haven't had time to get into the issue. But being in an Impala platform, I already feel some hope that I can find a lot of parts for it easier than I did with my 2005.