I'm in need of a tranny rebuild, car goes into the shop in 2 weeks. Read this yesterday and this post had me concerned about parts. Texted my builder, he does not seem concerned, he is well connected, but then these are strange times. I went to Triple Edges site tonight and it appears they still do rebuilds for our trannys, basic tranny $2500, mid power level $2900, even up to their high hp builds for over 300whp for $3300, core charge and shipping are extra. So this is reassuring to read. Plus ZZP's website has numerous transmission parts in stock. You guys just trying to give an old man a heart attack or what?? Whew, now I can calm down.

 

I bought the last ATK in the country. If you go to Jegs site now, instead of saying "ships tomorrow" it now says 8/11. This is the norm. Maybe your guy was smart enough to stock rebuild kits, or he uses parts of yours again after cleaning. I have no idea. Possibly the HD parts he uses are not what a standard builder would use. I just know I contacted most every large rebuilder in the US and they all told me 8-10 weeks. Let us know how long it took you to get one.

 

I see. Id thought you actually reached out to them and heard they'd stopped building them. Glad that's not the case and that they're still going.

While I agree fixing a trans for a stock car isn't anything special and can be done by any trans shop that rebuilds to print, I disagree that any shop can do it when it comes to big power builds.

Every trans has its nuances and things you can do 'outside the book instructions' to make them stay together at high power levels. TEP is one of the few shops with a really good reputation specific to the 4t65 and is in a very large % of the fastest W bodies in the country. Thats the main reason I continue to reccomend them - especially since trans failure questions are so common on these types of forums when people start adding power.

 

I did not say ANY shop, but there are many people in the country that drag race and deal with HP transmissions. They do not have an exclusive on it. As a rule, there are only a few "weak links" in any tranny, and after a while most everyone knows them. They do not list ANY trannys for sale, but state that they will rebuild your tranny (if they have the parts). That could take weeks or months. I am buying a tranny for a daily driver, not a race car or even high horsepower street car. So their place is of no use to me. Also, very few people throw money at FWD stuff for real horsepower. I only found a few places that dealt in upgraded 4t65e's. Not a big demand. But due to the economy, there is a huge demand for stock ones, because people are keeping their cars now and as you know, there is a huge shortage of stuff to buy. The market is insane right now. And not to burst your bubble, but for every 4T65e that is prepped, there are probably 1000 power glides or 400 turbos that are bulletproofed.

 

No, I did. When it comes to just rebuilding to spec for a daily driver, the 4t65 is a pretty straightforward trans. Any reputable trans shop is just fine. Plenty of people have went this route without issue, and given a stock spec build generally lasts at least 100k (outside of the LS4 cars of course), its generally a one time expense for most as the car will likely be in the junkyard by 200-250k anyways.

So because a shop has built a 1000 drag spec turbo 400s, they're somehow magically experts in every single transmission out there? Its flawed logic. If you're pushing the limits of your Lamborghini DCT, you're not going to take it to this turbo 400 / glide drag shop - you're going to take it to someone with a good reputation with that specific transmission.

Same goes for the 4t65, there are probably 4 or fewer companies left out there that have proven to be able to build a 4t65 that runs 10s or better. Why would anyone looking for a performance build go to some generic rwd performance trans shop that isn't proven in this community. We've been doing this stuff for 20 years now, the places that know how to keep them together are well established now.

No doubt the biggest pieces are obvious. Pull up any of the main 3800/4t65 performance shops, and you'll get a list of the big parts - input shaft, chain, output shaft, etc. But just because a place buys those few hard parts doesn't mean it'll be a bulletproof build. There are other things specific to the 4t65 to do while rebuilding to keep it together at high power levels. These perfromance trans shops that specialize in regular RWD stuff haven't campaigned a drag car on this platform and don't know the fine details specific to this trans (hint - its not just a turbo 400 turned sideways).

Building a hi po 4t65 isn't as easy as you like to make it seem though. With the discontinuation of the GMR parts, high power builds are struggling to keep things together these days. Its not like they just slap on a few weak link parts and are GTG like you imply.

I never tried to push them on you, you'd be just fine at literally any reputable trans shop.

Again, I don't see what the two have in common. You seem to have a misconception that just because a shop has done 400s for decades that they're somehow able to build a performance version of every trans out there.

I don't know why anyone with a 4t65 (or any other 'non typical' trans - lambp DCT, DSM manual, etc etc) would take their trans to one of these generic transmission performance shops. Just because they can build a 6 second glide doesn't mean they're going to magically do the same for some other trans.

I think there's 2 reasons for people doing a performance 4t65 build to support a shop like TEP:
1.) Places like ZZP, Intense, TEP, etc are the reason why this platform is where it is today on the performance side. They had shop cars pushing the limits and breaking things to find out what needs to be fixed. They did the R&D to iterate and improve parts and worked with shops to bring these things to market. As this platform is fading away so are the shops that support it. If people dont continue to buy stuff from them, they'll just end support for this platform and we'll be left with nothing on the performance side (I get you don't care, but many do). Without these shops buying the upgraded hard parts in bulk to resell, its very likely the hard part OEMs would discontinue making 4t65 stuff.

2.) These 4t65/3800 specific shops actually know how to keep these trans together from personal experience. They were the guys out there with their teams at all of the huge 3800 meets over the last 2 decades pushing into the 12s, 11s, 10s, 9s, and eventually 8s. Its ignorant to think that some random RWD shop somehow has those decades of knowledge on this platform just because they build an awesome glide. Try asking them (Monster for example) to see how fast their shop W body went on a 4t65 and you're going to hear crickets.

I've been to dozens of W body racing events over the last 2 decades - theres a reason why all of the fastest cars have always had their trans coming from one of a handful of 4t65 experts. Nothing has changed today.

 

Many of the transmission shops actually tell what they do to improve the 4t65, just as I reprinted from the Jegs blurb. There are plenty of shops out there that rebuild all sorts of trannys including the 4T65. You don't have to run a car down the track to know how to make a tranny good. ATI is the best tranny part supplier in the country, and they don't have an in house drag car, but like many other major suppliers, they go to the National and divisional races every year, consult with racers, tear down equipment and see what failed. A 4t65 is not some foreign object to a tranny builder. They all operate more or less the same way.

This is a blurb from Powertrain Products. Doubt they have an inhouse race car, but they address known problems of the 4t65e.

• Completely remanufactured pump, including replacement of slide pivot pin, provides consistent internal pressures, eliminates slipping and/or delayed engagement.

• Pump driveshaft seal updated to solid Teflon seal for prevention of torque converter lock-up, slip, and chatter.

• Thoroughly inspected Input clutch housing thrust bearing assures proper end play and eliminates noisy operation.

• Fully remanufactured valve body, with updated TCC Control Valve, TCC Regulator Apply Valve, Torque Signal Regulator Valve, and Reverse Boost Valve, improves shifting, lubrication, and performance.

• Updated 4th clutch shaft prevents loss of 4th gear due to stripped splines.

• Updated 4th clutch shaft prevents loss of 4th gear due to stripped splines.

• New EPC solenoid assures proper line pressure control and shift feel.

• Updated Actuator Feed Limit Valve assures proper solenoid pressure feed.

• Clutch clearances set to custom-spec standards for improved shift feel and timing.

• Fully remanufactured torque converter tested for leaks, lockup, concentricity, and balance. Upgrades surpass OE requirements, eliminating the possibility of front seal leaks, premature bushing wear, and vibration.

• Thoroughly inspected torque converter support bearing to prevent sleeve failure.

• New custom-spec bushings improve internal fluid flow control and pressure.

• All bushings and machined surfaces polished to a mirror-like OE finish of 16 RA or better.

• "Tru-Flat" qualification process applied to transmission case, valve body, pump, and channel plate to prevent cross leaks and pressure loss.

• Complete road simulation testing using a proprietary dynamometer testing program called CARS (Computer-Aided Road Simulation). Every transmission is cold- and hot-tested while using a custom-blended fully synthetic ATF and filtration system.

  
  
  
  

And if someone in a FWD is running 8s (or even 9s) I would hope their life insurance is paid up.

 

Yep, many shops will rebuild a stock 4T65E and they will generally do fine . I would take the Power Train peoples chest thumping with a grain of salt. I would bet these are typical upgraded parts that the whole industry gets as the bugs became evident. Never even heard of them before, went to Trust Pilot for reviews, always go straight for the negatives and well there are some pretty pissed people with regards to warranty and general performance issues and poor help from that shop.

My guy I feel does a very good competent 4T65E HD tranny rebuild. He had Sams 875whp Montes tranny apart a few times to understand what failed at those power levels. Many parts he had custom 1 off made and before delivery to Sam, Matt felt he had it built to live up there at 875 and 4 years later Sam is still on the same tranny. The intel he gleaned from Sam's he applies to mine and it does very good for me I feel. I'm hard on it for sure, and I know these are inherently weak, so I dont get mad when I pop another one, as they say "Power breaks things". So I roll with the flow and get another one built. But should I ever need one from outside my shop I would definitely go with TEP. My list the other day states that they also build the everyday 4T65E driver tranny for a very reasonable price. On the other hand you are pretty well connected and know your way around the puzzle enough to run down parts, so it was that which seemingly allowed you to find the tranny you did, you be fortunate and not have to wait 8 weeks or so. Scary to think what we will face searching for parts as like Bumpin says, once the purchasing dwindles to the point of its not worth stocking we may be in a pickle. Thats if the Russians don't go crazy on us over this Ukraine debacle. Guess I should stock up on a few key uncommon parts while they are here to be had.

 

Exactly right. I bought that tranny on a Friday, and it boasted we will ship tomorrow. The next day it had the ship date for that same tranny as 8/11. So there must be a huge container full of parts on the ocean somewhere....lol. And having drag raced all my life we both know that it simply involves finding the weakest leak, which lots of HP will show up pretty fast. I just hate doing R&D for nothing. We blew the caps off a 9" Nascar Ford. Moser told us they were fine for those guys, but not for launching at 5000 RPM. Got some billet caps and never had another problem with that, or the upgraded axles. Then one time we kept hearing a chirping noise. Drove us crazy. Finally found an ear almost broken off a B&M converter. They fixed it for free, and made additional welds after that to strengthen. But you spend a lot of money towing to the races, then breaking something and going back home. No compensation for that. You learn the hard (and expensive) way who makes the good stuff.

As I was trying to explain to Bumpin, it is not a big secret out there what goes wrong with these trannies. They see the cores, they talk to others, they learn what GM did or did not do. They warranty them for 3 years mostly, and they don't want any problems. This is why you never buy a new car. Even though GM and others claim they give them a rigorous testing, there is nothing like the real world to show problems. I never buy a car unless it is 3 years or older....most a lot older these days, because the newer cars are just full of mostly electrical problems, which I can't diagnose or fix. Good luck.

 

Being a member of the W-Body community for years and seeing the numerous posts about transmission issues with the 4t65e.... Historically, many people had a trans fail, leveraged a local shop only to have it fail again. Some of these people began leveraging shops with proven reputations, specifically TEP and they stopped having transmission issues. These were on factory cars, lightly modded and big HP modded cars. I will agree, a lot has changed over the years and I am sure a well experienced shop is all too familiar with the old 4t65e. Heck, mine had an issue and I had a shop I used before for other transmission issues rebuild it. All is great.
But as Bumpin' mentioned, depending on your need and you can get to a point where not all shops are equal on the knowledge of the 4t65e.

And sadly, if one is building a high HP car, a lot of the old performance goodies for the 4t65e have been discontinued.

 

Yeah, when I got to a car show, no one even gives me a second look because I am FWD. And drag racing, along with NASCAR, is a dying sport. Tracks closing, sponsors dropping. All the old farts like me have lost interest because of the cookie cutter stuff. Now we go to car shows and swap lies. But many things are this way. Most sports are dying. So no one is going to gear up and make HP parts that will never be sold. Back when I was racing in the 90s, there were engine shops everywhere, and demand was incredible. I ran Super Comp - 8.90 index. At most any National Event (and you had to have enough points to even be invited), there were 180-200 cars first round. They would run on Friday to thin the herd and hope some would leave to make room. Super Gas was the same way. And the worst part was you would pay thousands for a motor, lose it on the 3rd or 4th pass (due to all the Chinese crap for parts), and they would simply say - tough luck, race engine. No warranty.