6th Gen ('00-'05): Pass Key Anti Theft Lockout Game
#1
03-06-2016, 04:10 PM
Pass Key Anti Theft Lockout Game
after owning my 04 ss for a year it decided i was trying to steal it and wont start.
i play the wait ten minutes with the key on trick and it runs.
it may or may not start the next time and randomly turns on the SECURITY indicator.
so. i read and researched and called gm. they passed me directly to chevrolet as if i would believe only chevy has this problem.
the offworld outsourced representative sent me to my local chevy dealer.
i wasnt happy with this because after all this is kentucky.
so i took it in to them and explained i wanted to discuss in detail what the issue was. i told the guy "look - everyone at gm knows exactly what this problem is and there is no need to play guessing games."
dude says they have to stick it on the computer and wait for the problem to show up and that they might need to keep it for a week.
i said "no problem - follow me" we went to the car stuck the key in and sha-bang it said the chevy service rep was trying to steal it. so he hollars for earl and they plug in and guess what!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?
the passkey module and lock cylinder are the problem!
the passkey module seems to die every 7 years and noone knows why (lithium ion battery ???) i can understand needing a new key cylinder - the key wiggles around in there loosly BUT the transponder is in the black plastic portion of the key. so he was getting pissed at me and said if the key wiggles its enough to cause trouble.
the real story to the passkey II system is that there IS a transponder in the key head. they key has to be in close enough range for the coil in the cylinder to activate the transponder and detect its code.
if there are other transponder type keys on the same keyring they can interfere. if the cylinder is worn and loose its valid to say it can cause problems.
so they passkey module craps out in 7 years. im hoping they let me keep it so i can take to my underground lab and dissasemble it. im betting there is a battery in there or what is sometimes called a super-capacitor that has dried out.
i did a lot of reading and got very little acknowledgement from gm other than the standard line in their flip chart that tells them to tell the caller "oh yes gm has been having a lot of trouble with that for some reason"
i do believe people have been lead down the path and over charged for the repair, or as many people have said "vehicle got dropped off at the junk yard" i also believe some shops will outright deny there is any knowledge of what is going on.
the analyzer needed to study the logs and data stored in the various modules is more sophisticated than many shops use to blow the whistle on the majority of everyday problems. these types will not be able to make use of the more robust second layer data.
the passkey II module is up over top of the parking brake. you can buy brand new ones for like $125.00. you can buy the cylinder (yup it comes from china) but im unclear on keys and programming your new module, cylinder and key transponders. maybe that is the 30 minute to hour long "learning" procedure.
i chose to let rod hatfield do it because say guarantee it will work and will refund me and not charge me a penny if this isnt it. im getting new m odule, new cylinder and 2 brand spankin new shiny transponder keys that will fit the trunk and door for $525.00 2 hours for 2 techs at the going rate of like $80.00 and hour and around 200 or so for the parts.
there is a box out there that bypasses the system and makes your car readily available for theft. it costs twice what the replacement ac delco module does, but you put that box in and go.
im also getting the oil leak sparkplug fire recall done. im impressed they found the car and me.
maybe all that has to be done is put in a new passkeyII module and new cylinder (which i bet comes with 2 keys) and then let the system learn, but then your new keys dont match the door or trunk. maybe you can give them the vin and they will cut the keys to match.
theres an interesting you tube video of a guy cutting the transponder out of his toyota keyhead and duct taping it to the side of the cylinder in just-the-right-place.
anyway - if you have this or a similar problem - start out finding out which of the 3 or 4 or however many anti theft systems is yours and research the key problem. the problem / failure is available on all makes and models that proudly bear the gm moniker.
there doesnt seem to be much documentation available and it would make sense since this is supposed to prevent car theft, not document how to steal one. and hopefully you dont have to get ANYTHING worked on in kentucky.
i play the wait ten minutes with the key on trick and it runs.
it may or may not start the next time and randomly turns on the SECURITY indicator.
so. i read and researched and called gm. they passed me directly to chevrolet as if i would believe only chevy has this problem.
the offworld outsourced representative sent me to my local chevy dealer.
i wasnt happy with this because after all this is kentucky.
so i took it in to them and explained i wanted to discuss in detail what the issue was. i told the guy "look - everyone at gm knows exactly what this problem is and there is no need to play guessing games."
dude says they have to stick it on the computer and wait for the problem to show up and that they might need to keep it for a week.
i said "no problem - follow me" we went to the car stuck the key in and sha-bang it said the chevy service rep was trying to steal it. so he hollars for earl and they plug in and guess what!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?
the passkey module and lock cylinder are the problem!
the passkey module seems to die every 7 years and noone knows why (lithium ion battery ???) i can understand needing a new key cylinder - the key wiggles around in there loosly BUT the transponder is in the black plastic portion of the key. so he was getting pissed at me and said if the key wiggles its enough to cause trouble.
the real story to the passkey II system is that there IS a transponder in the key head. they key has to be in close enough range for the coil in the cylinder to activate the transponder and detect its code.
if there are other transponder type keys on the same keyring they can interfere. if the cylinder is worn and loose its valid to say it can cause problems.
so they passkey module craps out in 7 years. im hoping they let me keep it so i can take to my underground lab and dissasemble it. im betting there is a battery in there or what is sometimes called a super-capacitor that has dried out.
i did a lot of reading and got very little acknowledgement from gm other than the standard line in their flip chart that tells them to tell the caller "oh yes gm has been having a lot of trouble with that for some reason"
i do believe people have been lead down the path and over charged for the repair, or as many people have said "vehicle got dropped off at the junk yard" i also believe some shops will outright deny there is any knowledge of what is going on.
the analyzer needed to study the logs and data stored in the various modules is more sophisticated than many shops use to blow the whistle on the majority of everyday problems. these types will not be able to make use of the more robust second layer data.
the passkey II module is up over top of the parking brake. you can buy brand new ones for like $125.00. you can buy the cylinder (yup it comes from china) but im unclear on keys and programming your new module, cylinder and key transponders. maybe that is the 30 minute to hour long "learning" procedure.
i chose to let rod hatfield do it because say guarantee it will work and will refund me and not charge me a penny if this isnt it. im getting new m odule, new cylinder and 2 brand spankin new shiny transponder keys that will fit the trunk and door for $525.00 2 hours for 2 techs at the going rate of like $80.00 and hour and around 200 or so for the parts.
there is a box out there that bypasses the system and makes your car readily available for theft. it costs twice what the replacement ac delco module does, but you put that box in and go.
im also getting the oil leak sparkplug fire recall done. im impressed they found the car and me.
maybe all that has to be done is put in a new passkeyII module and new cylinder (which i bet comes with 2 keys) and then let the system learn, but then your new keys dont match the door or trunk. maybe you can give them the vin and they will cut the keys to match.
theres an interesting you tube video of a guy cutting the transponder out of his toyota keyhead and duct taping it to the side of the cylinder in just-the-right-place.
anyway - if you have this or a similar problem - start out finding out which of the 3 or 4 or however many anti theft systems is yours and research the key problem. the problem / failure is available on all makes and models that proudly bear the gm moniker.
there doesnt seem to be much documentation available and it would make sense since this is supposed to prevent car theft, not document how to steal one. and hopefully you dont have to get ANYTHING worked on in kentucky.
#2
03-06-2016, 06:50 PM
Hi mcsweet.
It does suck that there are so many anti-theft related issues with our cars.
Just one correction though...There is no transponder in they key of a gen. 6, that ended with gen.5's. The transponder chip is in the ignition cylinder of gen. 6's which I bet is your only problem. I haven't heard a "module" going bad yet unless they're referring to the BCM. In fact, I checked the factory service manual and it makes no mention of the module you are describing. The BCM is close to the parking brake which is what the chip communicates with to compare the class 2 serial data link code stored in each. I doubt the dealer would charge less than $300 for the BCM part alone, so I have to question the accuracy/honesty of your dealer.
FYI- an OEM ignition cylinder can be bought on eBay for about $75. It comes with one key but the tumblers can be reset for your old key to work, or a locksmith or dealer can cut a new key from the VIN. The replacement takes about 20 minutes, then you have to do the 30 minute security re-learn procedure, no tools required.
Here's a tutorial video in case you change your mind, the cylinder replacement is demonstrated in the switch replacement which is sometimes a problem too:
It does suck that there are so many anti-theft related issues with our cars.
Just one correction though...There is no transponder in they key of a gen. 6, that ended with gen.5's. The transponder chip is in the ignition cylinder of gen. 6's which I bet is your only problem. I haven't heard a "module" going bad yet unless they're referring to the BCM. In fact, I checked the factory service manual and it makes no mention of the module you are describing. The BCM is close to the parking brake which is what the chip communicates with to compare the class 2 serial data link code stored in each. I doubt the dealer would charge less than $300 for the BCM part alone, so I have to question the accuracy/honesty of your dealer.
FYI- an OEM ignition cylinder can be bought on eBay for about $75. It comes with one key but the tumblers can be reset for your old key to work, or a locksmith or dealer can cut a new key from the VIN. The replacement takes about 20 minutes, then you have to do the 30 minute security re-learn procedure, no tools required.
Here's a tutorial video in case you change your mind, the cylinder replacement is demonstrated in the switch replacement which is sometimes a problem too:
Last edited by plumbob; 03-06-2016 at 07:23 PM.
#3
03-07-2016, 12:11 AM
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mentor, Ohio
Posts: 12,156
I agree with everything Plumbob said.
I have seen online there are a good amount of issues with the anti-theft system in these GM cars. The Monte/Impala/Grand Am from '00-'05 I know all work the same. From all the Montes/Impalas/Grand Ams my friends and family have owned that I have personally touched, I have yet to hear anyone having any PassLock issues. I currently have a '04 Grand Am and my '04 Monte, never an issue. My step-brother's '00 Grand Am was trading in with 257K mile (about 220K were all him) and never a security issue.
As PlumbBob said, there is NO transponder/chip in the key on your key ring for these cars. That is simply cut metal and plastic. I've bought my own non-chipped blank keys online, had them cut for my '04 Monte, used them with no learning process (cut and go).
Also, you mentioned a "passkey II module is up over top of the parking brake". That module is not passkey. That is the BCM (Body Control Module) and controls a lot of functions in the car. PassKey is comprised of at least (possibly more pieces) the BCM, the PCM and the chip mounted to your lock cylinder. The key must fit 100% to activate the chip on the lock cylinder (this prevents forcing a screw driver in and force twisting the ignition to "on" and driving away with the car). I cannot say for sure if that chip on the lock has a capacitor or battery, but I am guessing it does not. That chip does use resistance when a valid key is used (I've installed two remote start setups to cars with this security system, one you had to measure the resistance and set the dip switches for it and the other auto-learns).
If your key OR lock cylinder is wearing out (which can happen, over multiple uses, the metal can dull/erode a little) and not fully engaging the lock, that might be where the issue is. I do know someone who had similar problems with a Saturn, was having to go through the "relearn" every couple of days. Found a problem with the key, got a new one cut and no more problems. It may also be worth a drop of lube in the cylinder once in a while.
I have seen online there are a good amount of issues with the anti-theft system in these GM cars. The Monte/Impala/Grand Am from '00-'05 I know all work the same. From all the Montes/Impalas/Grand Ams my friends and family have owned that I have personally touched, I have yet to hear anyone having any PassLock issues. I currently have a '04 Grand Am and my '04 Monte, never an issue. My step-brother's '00 Grand Am was trading in with 257K mile (about 220K were all him) and never a security issue.
As PlumbBob said, there is NO transponder/chip in the key on your key ring for these cars. That is simply cut metal and plastic. I've bought my own non-chipped blank keys online, had them cut for my '04 Monte, used them with no learning process (cut and go).
Also, you mentioned a "passkey II module is up over top of the parking brake". That module is not passkey. That is the BCM (Body Control Module) and controls a lot of functions in the car. PassKey is comprised of at least (possibly more pieces) the BCM, the PCM and the chip mounted to your lock cylinder. The key must fit 100% to activate the chip on the lock cylinder (this prevents forcing a screw driver in and force twisting the ignition to "on" and driving away with the car). I cannot say for sure if that chip on the lock has a capacitor or battery, but I am guessing it does not. That chip does use resistance when a valid key is used (I've installed two remote start setups to cars with this security system, one you had to measure the resistance and set the dip switches for it and the other auto-learns).
If your key OR lock cylinder is wearing out (which can happen, over multiple uses, the metal can dull/erode a little) and not fully engaging the lock, that might be where the issue is. I do know someone who had similar problems with a Saturn, was having to go through the "relearn" every couple of days. Found a problem with the key, got a new one cut and no more problems. It may also be worth a drop of lube in the cylinder once in a while.
#4
03-07-2016, 06:09 PM
damn... it scares me how gullible i am.
ive got a few types of cleaners and lubes i use in high voltage gear just itching to get sprayed in the keyhole.
so just for a new wrinkle... the security display will pop up from time to time while driving and go away on its own.... and it has happen nearly every other day in the past couple weeks and maybe one or two times over the previous year. ive only had it 18 months and its got 55000 miles on it.
what everyone is saying makes a lot of good sense BECAAAAUUUUSE the previous owner left the control head ot his radar gadget behind the dash window, right under the check engine light. it has 4 wire telephone cable and rj 11 on each end and the wire seems to be tangled up back there where i fear to go.
the hazard button is broke and flopping around in there too just for good measure - bezel is broke off the dash so its gonna be a real contest fixing that.
the way i came to the previous conclusion was based on a web page that shows the passkey module with passkey actually printed on it and then the link to the place that sells the cheater boxes.
(*cough* -- My Business - ??????Security light on? Car not starting? Everything else works like it should? You probably have a failed security system... This is a very common problem on GM vehicles. You'll find some useful tips and bypass methods below. Welcom <- this place *cough*)
reading all that all over and yup it shows stuff that isnt relevant to my car. i shoiuld have seen that.
i owe about 4 eternally-gratefulls to you guys for taking time to share knowledge.... i can put up with trying a couple things and seeing what happens a lot easier than saying goodbye to 600 bucks NOW KNOWING the dealer has no idea if they fixed it or not... or even WHAT they were fixing.
(blasting sound)
weet
ive got a few types of cleaners and lubes i use in high voltage gear just itching to get sprayed in the keyhole.
so just for a new wrinkle... the security display will pop up from time to time while driving and go away on its own.... and it has happen nearly every other day in the past couple weeks and maybe one or two times over the previous year. ive only had it 18 months and its got 55000 miles on it.
what everyone is saying makes a lot of good sense BECAAAAUUUUSE the previous owner left the control head ot his radar gadget behind the dash window, right under the check engine light. it has 4 wire telephone cable and rj 11 on each end and the wire seems to be tangled up back there where i fear to go.
the hazard button is broke and flopping around in there too just for good measure - bezel is broke off the dash so its gonna be a real contest fixing that.
the way i came to the previous conclusion was based on a web page that shows the passkey module with passkey actually printed on it and then the link to the place that sells the cheater boxes.
(*cough* -- My Business - ??????Security light on? Car not starting? Everything else works like it should? You probably have a failed security system... This is a very common problem on GM vehicles. You'll find some useful tips and bypass methods below. Welcom <- this place *cough*)
reading all that all over and yup it shows stuff that isnt relevant to my car. i shoiuld have seen that.
i owe about 4 eternally-gratefulls to you guys for taking time to share knowledge.... i can put up with trying a couple things and seeing what happens a lot easier than saying goodbye to 600 bucks NOW KNOWING the dealer has no idea if they fixed it or not... or even WHAT they were fixing.
(blasting sound)
weet
#5
03-07-2016, 08:24 PM
LMAO...
K weet. Fret not, you can do this! it's way easy! If I were you I would get a new ignition switch housing ($75 on ebay). This would rule out any Gremlins that might be lurking in there. Might not be necessary, but the choice is yours.
Get the new lock cylinder on eBay too. Stick with ACDelco on this stuff 'cause the aftermarket stuff aint so good. If you want to use the same key pattern but have new keys, take the ignition cylinder, the old key and the VIN of the car to a locksmith and have them make new keys. Make sure they work in the doors and trunk before you leave. Buy having the ignition switch and lock cylinder all prepped it's just a simple swap. Since you have to pull the instrument panel off anyway, replace the hazard switch. Dorman's are OK for this ($20). Check out that tangle of wire you have while the dash is uncovered.
Hazard switch video and eBay selections to come...
Lock cylinder: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-AC-Delco-...dVbkzZ&vxp=mtr
Ignition switch: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACDelco-D143...BTwEKy&vxp=mtr
Hazard switch: http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAZARD-WARNI...ZW2bxP&vxp=mtr
Hazardswitch tutorial:
K weet. Fret not, you can do this! it's way easy! If I were you I would get a new ignition switch housing ($75 on ebay). This would rule out any Gremlins that might be lurking in there. Might not be necessary, but the choice is yours.
Get the new lock cylinder on eBay too. Stick with ACDelco on this stuff 'cause the aftermarket stuff aint so good. If you want to use the same key pattern but have new keys, take the ignition cylinder, the old key and the VIN of the car to a locksmith and have them make new keys. Make sure they work in the doors and trunk before you leave. Buy having the ignition switch and lock cylinder all prepped it's just a simple swap. Since you have to pull the instrument panel off anyway, replace the hazard switch. Dorman's are OK for this ($20). Check out that tangle of wire you have while the dash is uncovered.
Hazard switch video and eBay selections to come...
Lock cylinder: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-AC-Delco-...dVbkzZ&vxp=mtr
Ignition switch: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACDelco-D143...BTwEKy&vxp=mtr
Hazard switch: http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAZARD-WARNI...ZW2bxP&vxp=mtr
Hazardswitch tutorial:
Last edited by plumbob; 03-07-2016 at 09:06 PM.
#6
03-07-2016, 11:10 PM
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mentor, Ohio
Posts: 12,156
No worries, it's all live and learn (and we all do it). Plumbob passed on some great info in his last post.
I think it sounds like you might now be better educated then the dealer you're working with
I think it sounds like you might now be better educated then the dealer you're working with
#7
10-29-2016, 07:34 PM
Have 2004 monte carlo. I had the resistor bypass done a month after i bought the car. after that car would start with no prbs each time. Then last month for 2 days, i had to start it twice. I thought nothing of it. The third day i took the car out, and i got back in an hour later , the car cranked turned over and promptly died. No flashing security light. I was thinking it was something to do with passlock anyway..I was stuck but called tow truck, got towed to my mechanic. While i was there i tried the key relearn procedure with key in on postion for 10 minutes. Car started and ran for a minute and died. OK left the car with mechanic. Battery cranking ok, fuel pressure good, ignition coils all good. Weird, NO error codes when diagnostic tool plugged in. Turns out ,it was a BAD MAF SENSOR!!! I never thought of that. Car runs fine now. granted i learned about cars in high school autoshop back in the late 1970s. OEM part replaced with Delphi MAF. Oh well, live and learn.
Last edited by BigEd; 10-29-2016 at 07:37 PM.