Big `3 Bailout $ Update:12-14-08
#11
12-13-2008, 06:14 AM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
Page last updated at 05:10 GMT, Saturday, 13 December 2008
White House considers auto rescue
Car chief appeals for help
The White House says it is considering using money earmarked to rescue the US banking industry to bail out the country's struggling carmakers.
The White House said a disorderly bankruptcy in the motor industry would be a huge blow which the US economy could not withstand.
A $14bn (£9.4bn) bail-out deal for the US car industry failed to get Senate support, raising fears of job cuts.
Meanwhile General Motors said it was temporarily stopping some production.
And Honda is also to cut back output in North America.
GM, which has been pleading for an emergency government loan to avert collapse, said it would halt 30% of its North American production "in response to rapidly deteriorating market conditions".
It saw vehicle sales fall 41% in November, when overall US car sales fell 26% industry wide.
The temporary shutdowns will affect 14 US factories as well as three in Canada and three in Mexico, reducing output by 250,000 vehicles in the first three months of 2009.
"The speed and severity of the US auto market's decline has been unprecedented in recent weeks as consumers reel from the collapse of the financial markets and the resulting lack of credit for vehicle financing," it added.
'Irresponsible'
Earlier this year, the US approved a $700bn (£467bn) bail-out for the finance industry, known as the TARP programme.
It had previously been reluctant to use this money for other industries but White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said it would consider other options, including the use of the TARP program, to prevent a collapse of troubled automakers.
She added that it would be "irresponsible" to further damage the economy by allowing the Detroit car companies to fail.
"The current weakened state of the economy is such that it could not withstand a body blow like a disorderly bankruptcy in the auto industry," she added.
President-elect Barack Obama said he was disappointed that the Senate failed to act, adding that "millions of jobs rely directly or indirectly on a viable auto industry".
HAVE YOUR SAY
The three US auto companies need to be seriously restructured in order to survive.
[/blockquote]Chris, UK
"My hope is that the administration and the Congress will still find a way to give the industry the temporary assistance it needs while demanding the long-term-restructuring that is absolutely required," he said.
'Devastating'
The Big Three - Chrysler, General Motors and Ford - employ 250,000 people directly, and many more indirectly, in companies making auto parts and car dealerships.
The United Automobile Workers (UAW) on Friday warned that if a bail-out was not forthcoming, the result would be "devastating."
The 's president, Ron Gettelfinger said he was confident that there were "enough sane" people in Washington to find a solution despite the Senate's defeat of the bail out bill.
Tense and emotional
The White House had said the plan was American carmakers' "best chance to avoid a disorderly bankruptcy".
Shares fell sharply around the world after the bail-out was rejected - with carmakers among the hardest hit.
However the glimmer of hope that the government would step in to help carmakers helped the Dow Jones index pull back early losses to finish ahead.
In Asia, stocks in Toyota, Honda and Nissan all lost at least 10%.
The Republicans refused to back the bail-out after the UAW refused to cut wages next year to bring them into line with their Japanese counterparts. UAW's current contract with the car makers expires in 2011.
"We were about three words away from a deal," said Republican Senator Bob Corker.
"We solved everything substantively and about three words keep us from reaching a conclusion."
The BBC's Andy Gallacher in Washington said it was always going to be a battle to get the US Senate to approve the $14bn bridging loan.
With a majority of just one in the Senate, the Democrats needed some Republicans to back the bill as some in their own party were expected to vote against it.
The atmosphere in the Senate was tense and at times emotional, our correspondent says, as the Democrats made last-minute pleas to get their Republican counterparts to vote in favour of helping America's biggest car domestic makers, Ford, Chrysler and General Motors.
Millions affected
The failure of the bail-out raises the prospect of huge job losses.
The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, said he was "terribly disappointed" when it became clear the vote had collapsed, calling it "a loss for the country".
"Millions of Americans, not only the auto workers but people who sell cars, car dealerships, people who work on cars are going to be directly impacted and affected."
The deal would have given the Big Three carmakers access to emergency funding to help them cope with the sharp downturn in sales because of the global financial crisis.
General Motors and Chrysler have said they risk ruin without immediate aid. Ford says it may need funds in the future.
The bosses of the three firms had previously asked for $34bn from Congress.
They have all seen sales fall sharply this year in the US, partly reflecting an industry-wide fall, and partly because their large gas-guzzling vehicles are no longer what customers want.
'Devastating'
The Big Three - Chrysler, General Motors and Ford - employ 250,000 people directly, and many more indirectly, in companies making auto parts and car dealerships.
The United Automobile Workers (UAW) on Friday warned that if a bail-out was not forthcoming, the result would be "devastating."
The 's president, Ron Gettelfinger said he was confident that there were "enough sane" people in Washington to find a solution despite the Senate's defeat of the bail out bill.
Tense and emotional
The White House had said the plan was American carmakers' "best chance to avoid a disorderly bankruptcy".
Shares fell sharply around the world after the bail-out was rejected - with carmakers among the hardest hit.
However the glimmer of hope that the government would step in to help carmakers helped the Dow Jones index pull back early losses to finish ahead.
In Asia, stocks in Toyota, Honda and Nissan all lost at least 10%.
The Republicans refused to back the bail-out after the UAW refused to cut wages next year to bring them into line with their Japanese counterparts. UAW's current contract with the car makers expires in 2011.
"We were about three words away from a deal," said Republican Senator Bob Corker.
"We solved everything substantively and about three words keep us from reaching a conclusion."
The BBC's Andy Gallacher in Washington said it was always going to be a battle to get the US Senate to approve the $14bn bridging loan.
With a majority of just one in the Senate, the Democrats needed some Republicans to back the bill as some in their own party were expected to vote against it.
The atmosphere in the Senate was tense and at times emotional, our correspondent says, as the Democrats made last-minute pleas to get their Republican counterparts to vote in favour of helping America's biggest car domestic makers, Ford, Chrysler and General Motors.
Millions affected
The failure of the bail-out raises the prospect of huge job losses.
The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, said he was "terribly disappointed" when it became clear the vote had collapsed, calling it "a loss for the country".
"Millions of Americans, not only the auto workers but people who sell cars, car dealerships, people who work on cars are going to be directly impacted and affected."
The deal would have given the Big Three carmakers access to emergency funding to help them cope with the sharp downturn in sales because of the global financial crisis.
General Motors and Chrysler have said they risk ruin without immediate aid. Ford says it may need funds in the future.
The bosses of the three firms had previously asked for $34bn from Congress.
They have all seen sales fall sharply this year in the US, partly reflecting an industry-wide fall, and partly because their large gas-guzzling vehicles are no longer what customers want.
#12
12-13-2008, 06:39 AM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
[align=center]
US city of cars feels global chill
By Matthew Price
BBC News, Detroit [/align]
[align=center][/align]
[:-]
For many in Detroit, the streets are no longer paved with gold[align=center][/align][align=center][/align]
When you drive round Detroit there are reminders everywhere. Reminders of the city's vibrant past, and of its relentless and sometimes seemingly terminal decline.
They come in the sound of the engines passing you on the streets. The Chevy cruising by. Or the gas guzzling Cadillac. Or just a large Ford, with the deep growl of its motor.
Stop at the huge General Motors HQ and you can visit a museum to Detroit's heritage.
Inside, old vintage models gleam proudly, their chrome bumpers reflecting your smitten gaze right back at you. A 1955 Buick Century, white with a bright red roof. A 1962 Chevrolet Bel Air. Think Route 66 and all that.
Three deadly letters
Opposite those models though linger the newer cars. The 2009 crowd. Proudly - or perhaps not - displaying the three letters which have helped destroy the motor industry here.
M. P. G.
Just 14 miles per gallon in the city on many models - and an astonishingly low 20 on the motorway.
[:-]
Detroit's Big Three have been losing out to foreign competition[align=center][/align][align=center][/align]
US city of cars feels global chill
By Matthew Price
BBC News, Detroit [/align]
[:-]
For many in Detroit, the streets are no longer paved with gold
When you drive round Detroit there are reminders everywhere. Reminders of the city's vibrant past, and of its relentless and sometimes seemingly terminal decline.
They come in the sound of the engines passing you on the streets. The Chevy cruising by. Or the gas guzzling Cadillac. Or just a large Ford, with the deep growl of its motor.
Stop at the huge General Motors HQ and you can visit a museum to Detroit's heritage.
Inside, old vintage models gleam proudly, their chrome bumpers reflecting your smitten gaze right back at you. A 1955 Buick Century, white with a bright red roof. A 1962 Chevrolet Bel Air. Think Route 66 and all that.
Three deadly letters
Opposite those models though linger the newer cars. The 2009 crowd. Proudly - or perhaps not - displaying the three letters which have helped destroy the motor industry here.
M. P. G.
Just 14 miles per gallon in the city on many models - and an astonishingly low 20 on the motorway.
[:-]
Detroit's Big Three have been losing out to foreign competition
For years Detroit's big car makers have resisted calls to improve fuel consumption. They felt the market didn't want that. They were wrong, to their cost, and now to the entire country's.
Just down the road, in the city once endearingly called Motor Town - or Motown - is the Motown Diner. It's pretty gloomy these days - and not just because of the snow and ice outside.
They make a warming chicken noodle soup though, and in-between mouthfuls you realize you don't need to find a car worker here to tap into the.
"Everybody makes complaints," the manager Bona says. "No money, no job."
In the corner, the local television station breaks into the afternoon soap opera to bring a live press conference from the governor of Michigan.
Jennifer Granholm says the car industry "has been extended a lifeline" thanks to George W Bush.
The president stepped in at the last minute, after the Senate failed to ratify a bill that would have secured emergency funding for the car makers. Without his pledge not to allow the companies to fail, Detroit would have been finished.
Interconnected
The customers stopped eating, and listened intently to the governor. Two smartly dressed business-women stood and watched as they got ready to leave.
[:-]
Too many US-made cars are chasing too few buyers
[align=center][/align][align=center][/align]Just down the road, in the city once endearingly called Motor Town - or Motown - is the Motown Diner. It's pretty gloomy these days - and not just because of the snow and ice outside.
They make a warming chicken noodle soup though, and in-between mouthfuls you realize you don't need to find a car worker here to tap into the.
"Everybody makes complaints," the manager Bona says. "No money, no job."
In the corner, the local television station breaks into the afternoon soap opera to bring a live press conference from the governor of Michigan.
Jennifer Granholm says the car industry "has been extended a lifeline" thanks to George W Bush.
The president stepped in at the last minute, after the Senate failed to ratify a bill that would have secured emergency funding for the car makers. Without his pledge not to allow the companies to fail, Detroit would have been finished.
Interconnected
The customers stopped eating, and listened intently to the governor. Two smartly dressed business-women stood and watched as they got ready to leave.
[:-]
Too many US-made cars are chasing too few buyers
One, Shan Norman, said Detroit feels abandoned by Washington.
"My business isn't directly tied into the automotive industry, but my clients in some form or shape receive their income from the auto industry. I'm a little concerned as a small business owner."
What does she do? "I'm a graphic artist." Even an artist is not immune to Detroit's problems? "Absolutely, absolutely. Understand that in this city we're all interconnected, sure, it's going to affect my income."
The Big Three's critics say they have themselves to blame, that by refusing to produce more fuel efficient cars for instance they eroded their own sales base.
Others however point out that they had been in the process of changing their business models just as the credit crisis hit and rendered restructuring impossible.
Global dimension
That is why many - including local car journalist Peter di Lorenzo - believe there must be significant investment in the industry.
[:-]
The Big Three are a key part of US life - but for how much longer?
[align=center][/align][align=center][/align]"My business isn't directly tied into the automotive industry, but my clients in some form or shape receive their income from the auto industry. I'm a little concerned as a small business owner."
What does she do? "I'm a graphic artist." Even an artist is not immune to Detroit's problems? "Absolutely, absolutely. Understand that in this city we're all interconnected, sure, it's going to affect my income."
The Big Three's critics say they have themselves to blame, that by refusing to produce more fuel efficient cars for instance they eroded their own sales base.
Others however point out that they had been in the process of changing their business models just as the credit crisis hit and rendered restructuring impossible.
Global dimension
That is why many - including local car journalist Peter di Lorenzo - believe there must be significant investment in the industry.
[:-]
The Big Three are a key part of US life - but for how much longer?
"It's absolutely essential that the investment is made now because I think the American companies are on the precipice of coming back and being technically advanced and offering fuel efficient vehicles. I think it would be beneficial to the country that they get this money and go forward."
Here they know that any money they get now will simply help keep them going until Barack Obama takes over the presidency.
He supports the funding, and also a longer-term (government supervised) overhaul of the industry. The US is living through not just economic change - but a seismic cultural and political one as well.
"I think the global economy has forced the United States to be more realistic," says Mr di Lorenzo.
"The free market ideals are still there, but the realities and the pressures of the global market are forcing the government to act when they in the past wouldn't have."
Back at the General Motors museum though, surrounded by the gleaming celebration of a bygone era, it's abundantly clear that government help alone may not be enough in the long run.
The Detroit Three had it easy when they were the only players in town. Globalisation has changed all that.
[/align]
Here they know that any money they get now will simply help keep them going until Barack Obama takes over the presidency.
He supports the funding, and also a longer-term (government supervised) overhaul of the industry. The US is living through not just economic change - but a seismic cultural and political one as well.
"I think the global economy has forced the United States to be more realistic," says Mr di Lorenzo.
"The free market ideals are still there, but the realities and the pressures of the global market are forcing the government to act when they in the past wouldn't have."
Back at the General Motors museum though, surrounded by the gleaming celebration of a bygone era, it's abundantly clear that government help alone may not be enough in the long run.
The Detroit Three had it easy when they were the only players in town. Globalisation has changed all that.
#13
12-13-2008, 07:17 AM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
A bailout HAS to happen, but it appears the UAW is the main problem here. Chapter 11 would cure that, like it or not, and they don't! GM unfortunately needs to do this. Ford is still solid. Chrysler is teetering, also. GM MUST shrink it's size to the size of it's market share. Jobs WILL be cut. That's unfortunate, but a reality. Cut jobs to save jobs, or lose them all! Cut wages and benefits to save the jobs that CAN be saved. Like I've said a dozen times, build QUALITY, and the customers WILL come back. But the customer wants the BEST car for their HUGE investment(?), and right now, it's not the big 3. GIVE the Hummer to AM General, Sell Saab. GMC trucks, not Chevrolet, Buick, or whoever, just cuz you can, but QUALITY trucks. Trash the Lincoln truck line. Merge and blend. Chevrolet for FWD cars. Pontiac for RWD. Make the Camaro and the Vette Pontiacs! Does it REALLY matter! It's JUST a badge! Same car! Buick? GONE! Just like Buick City is GONE! Just a vacant field. OR, make it an entry level to the Cadillac, which is what it SHOULD be, anyways. The tooling costs for multiple platforms is STAGGERING! You save some on the chassis, but the other costs involved can no longer be recovered.
QUALITY! That's what it's ALL about. Not quantity. Quantity will come back when the quality comes back. Not just in manufacturing, but in service, also. Make buying and owning a GM, Ford OR Chrysler car or truck a GREAT experience. Lexus should be the standard. Mercedes. Volco. Not Jaguar! Lifetime warranties on powertrains to original owners. 100,000 miles bumper to bumper. Parents will buy their kids these cars, if the QUALITY is there, but they won't buy their kids junk!
The bailout WILL happen. Too many jobs at stake here. Give the big 3 contracts for ALL government vehicles, but MAKE THEM STAND BEHIND THEM! Make them pay for ALL maintenance! 150,000 miles with ALL maintenance and service covered by the big 3.
Secondly, globalisation needs to be restructured. TAX ALL imported items, Everyone else does! Not us! The USA should put itself ahead of the needs of other countries. We seem to have forgotten that simple policy. 50% tax on EVERYTHING that comes into the USA. EVERYTHING! Will it cost us more? Maybe right now, but the ecomomy is SO screwed up from having oil men run our country for the last 8 years, that drastic changes NEED to be made, and heavy import taxes would force much of the businesses to bring jobs BACK to the USA. High paying jobs? Some, but no, but jobs. I know WAY too many GOOD people unemployed, that would take ANY solid job over sitting home.
QUALITY! That's what it's ALL about. Not quantity. Quantity will come back when the quality comes back. Not just in manufacturing, but in service, also. Make buying and owning a GM, Ford OR Chrysler car or truck a GREAT experience. Lexus should be the standard. Mercedes. Volco. Not Jaguar! Lifetime warranties on powertrains to original owners. 100,000 miles bumper to bumper. Parents will buy their kids these cars, if the QUALITY is there, but they won't buy their kids junk!
The bailout WILL happen. Too many jobs at stake here. Give the big 3 contracts for ALL government vehicles, but MAKE THEM STAND BEHIND THEM! Make them pay for ALL maintenance! 150,000 miles with ALL maintenance and service covered by the big 3.
Secondly, globalisation needs to be restructured. TAX ALL imported items, Everyone else does! Not us! The USA should put itself ahead of the needs of other countries. We seem to have forgotten that simple policy. 50% tax on EVERYTHING that comes into the USA. EVERYTHING! Will it cost us more? Maybe right now, but the ecomomy is SO screwed up from having oil men run our country for the last 8 years, that drastic changes NEED to be made, and heavy import taxes would force much of the businesses to bring jobs BACK to the USA. High paying jobs? Some, but no, but jobs. I know WAY too many GOOD people unemployed, that would take ANY solid job over sitting home.
#14
12-13-2008, 04:14 PM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
The UAW workers conjure up an image of a really stupid kidnapper. He holds the gun to his own head and tells authorities....."Pay or I'll shoot"
#15
12-13-2008, 05:34 PM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
unfortunatly this has been 20 years + in the making when our goverment let import car in the country. and then when the hole import cars are better build then our cars made it even worse when everybody started to bellive it!
we the car buying public is the problem here i think . plus the goverment is not helping.the goverment should have stated back when all this import stuff started that if you have a goverment job you have to drive a domestic car and if they bail out the car makers it should be inforced
we the car buying public is the problem here i think . plus the goverment is not helping.the goverment should have stated back when all this import stuff started that if you have a goverment job you have to drive a domestic car and if they bail out the car makers it should be inforced
#16
12-13-2008, 09:05 PM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
ORIGINAL: 88ss408
we the car buying public is the problem here i think.
we the car buying public is the problem here i think.
This country is built on free trade. The government is only part of the problem. NAFTA was a SERIOUS mistake. The government has made a SERIOUS mistake in allowing free trade to cross our borders. Tarriffs should be imposed on ANYTHING imported. Russia has a 40% tax on our imported cars into their country. Do we impose taxes on ANYTHING imported. It's WRONG.
Government has had blinders on, but so has Detroit. They have had the idea "Build it, and they will buy it". WRONG! QUALITY is what sells cars. It sells Cadillacs, but there is no long term quality in a Cadillac. No one owns one over 100,000 miles. They are junk after that. Not so with a Lexus or a Volvo or a Mercedes or a Volkswagon. Show me ONE Monte Carlo out there with 100,000 miles on it that has NEVER had any service done except LOF and tires. NOT ONE! This is THE #1 reason GM is struggling. Nice cars, but the quality just isn't there. Nicer cars than most imports, but the quality JUST ISN'T THERE!
Chapter 11 the whole bunch! Fire the execs! Give the UAW fair wages for the employees qualifications. No $28/ hour janitors or press operators. Pay should equal skill and education levels. Every job is NOT equal to another. A janitor is NOT equal to a tool & die maker or an electrician! SORRY! It JUST ISN'T TRUE! The janitor or press operator that is mentally challenged should NOT make the same as the skilled trades, just because they can pay UAW dues. Where is the justification for higher education?
The UAW refusing to budge on their concessions is why the Senate turned down the bail-out. Will G.W. bail them out? Does he have a choice? We have a choice in what WE buy. Free trade. Wal-Mart. Chinese products. Isn't that what the public wants?
I took a buddy Christmas shopping today. He's mentally challenged. His family abandoned him YEARS ago. The only friends he has in the world are his Church family, and those living with him in the adult foster home. Most of his possessions are hand me downs. Most of his good stuff was stolen at the last foster home. So we went shopping today. Started with jeans. NONE were made in the USA, but bought hime some from Mexico. Next were shoes. That was an EASY choice, but not cheap. New Balance brand, made in the USA! Not at the mall, but a small shoe store. Socks and a new winter coat from Pakistan. TRY to find one made in the USA. NOTHING from the trade deficit destroyer, Wal-Mart, but Sears and TSC. See what world free trade and NAFTA has gotten us?
RANT! RANT! RANT! WAIT! RANT! RANT! RANT!
#17
12-13-2008, 09:29 PM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
man you (rockn) have a very stought argument there. everything of what is said is completely and utterly true. its sad.
#18
12-13-2008, 09:30 PM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
ORIGINAL: 07MonteSS
Uh dude...just get a 2002 SS vert...they will be a collectible...and besides they look better...do you really want a new car payment? come on man you could get a TT lotus for 40 grand
Uh dude...just get a 2002 SS vert...they will be a collectible...and besides they look better...do you really want a new car payment? come on man you could get a TT lotus for 40 grand
Car payment? Why not? I stand to make over $20k this next summer, school is free for me due to grades and ACT score, possibly getting a RA job so that then room and board are free. I've been waiting for this Camaro since I first saw the concept back when I was a freshman in high school, now it's finally coming out years later.
As for the Lotus, I've heard that people over 6' have problems fitting, and well, I'm 6' 8" hence the reason I'm looking for a larger car.
#19
12-13-2008, 10:07 PM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
I prefer the 4th gens myself. But I wanted, no needed a FWD car for a daily driver. 100+ miles/day commuting in this crap! FWD is THE only car for me. And driving this distance, and buying a GM, I NEEDED an extended warranty. The 3.8L's are THE best GM made, and after wrecking 2 '01 Impalas, I found out how safe these cars are. I want the full size car for comfort, but the sportiness of a 2 door, and I REALLY wanted the L67! And, most of my family has worked in one GM plant or another at some time, including myself. 5 relatives worked in Buick city in '47. Dad, Grandpa, 2 Uncles, and Father-in-law. Place is just a vacant field now. Place of the 1st strike. GM HAD to tear it down. Bad memories. A glimpse of the future.
#20
12-14-2008, 09:08 AM
RE: Big `3 Bailout Dies : (
well i think that quality is more luck becaus i have a 88 chevy 4x4 truck and it has over 372 822 miles and it was barely taken car of and i also have a 03 impala 3400 with over 145 400 miles (regular oil change ) and no problems so far !
and there is more of them around with similer years miles .
and yet there is these two young yougs down the road the are in to hondas (civics) and at least ones a month they are changing a motor or a trans. i runn my old Z24 as hard if not harder and changed 1 motor in 4 years!!
and there is more of them around with similer years miles .
and yet there is these two young yougs down the road the are in to hondas (civics) and at least ones a month they are changing a motor or a trans. i runn my old Z24 as hard if not harder and changed 1 motor in 4 years!!