what supporting mods needed for a 75 shot of dry nitrous?
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 163
03SS/00GSE/93LX - you are still mistaken about your fire concerns.
The scenario you have on video is not from a fuel solenoid getting stuck open, that video is a result of whats known as a "nitrous backfire."
A nitrous backfire occurs when the NITROUS solenoid (common between both wet/ dry kits), gets stuck open. While the engine is off, and the solenoids open, the intake fills with nitrous. Upon cranking to start the motor, the engine experiences a MASSIVE backfire due to the extremely lean scenario....hence your engine fire....
Again, an open fuel solenoid WILL not cause a fire in an engine.
Perfect example....take ANY carbureted vehicle. Run it down the track and get your temp up to 200*. Stop your motor in the pits, shut down the gas and start pumping the gas (dumping raw fuel into a hot intake). Guarentee the motor does not burst into flames. I know this because this is common procedure for starting heavily modified carb vehicles. As a matter of fact, a lot of higher hp guys shut down the motors going through the traps wide open. When they restart in the turnaround, since the motors are already loaded up, they hold the fuel to the BOARDS to start it.
So if you are worried about a fire, it is just as capable in a dry kit as a wet kit if its a nitrous backfire you are referring too....
Its stories and videos like this that circulate the net and scare people away from using spray.
I would guess that this guy was running a system with no filter on his NITROUS line that caused the solenoid to get jammed open.
*My example on injector duty was just that....an example. and Clearly as you showed, its NOT cost effective.
A very BASIC dry kit runs for 4-500.00 (with no safety precautions such as pressure switches/ filters). Now add the cost of injectors (180.00 MINIMUM). Now factor in remapping your car for larger injectors (tuner or pcm reflash 100-500)....it very quickly adds up to a system that has NO advantage over a wet system imo.
...also, this is straight from the Nitrous Express website...
~"If you have investigated Nitrous Express at all you will notice we manufacture no street oriented “DRY” nitrous systems. There is a very good reason for this, they are bad news and guaranteed to damage engine parts. Why you ask? Every intake manifold made, either by the factory or the aftermarket is a compromise. No two cylinders get the same amount of air. Try as they might even the best sheet metal race intakes flow differently across all cylinders. When dry nitrous is introduced into the intake air stream of any intake manifold every cylinder will get a different amount of nitrous. Some will get more, and some will get less. Now, where does the fuel come from to utilize this nitrous? It comes from the stock injectors. Being an inanimate piece of hardware all it knows to do is introduce a predetermined amount of fuel into the cylinder that the ECM tells it to. This is without regard to how much nitrous actually got to the cylinder. Therefore every cylinder will be either rich or lean, but none will have the correct air/fuel ratio. Depending on how far this ratio is off will determine how much damage is going to happen to this cylinder. Very small amounts of nitrous can be successfully introduced without damage but the resulting imbalance of nitrous/fuel is always harmful to the engine.
The proponents of “DRY” nitrous systems claim that modern intake manifolds were not designed to flow fuel therefore they cannot. What a load of crap! The air speed inside of an intake manifold operating at wide-open throttle is more that the speed of sound, 750 MPH give or take. When properly atomized fuel is introduced into the intake stream it will follow the airflow, it would be impossible for this atomized fuel to condense into a liquid and form a “Puddle” anywhere in the manifold. The key to wet technology is complete atomization of the incoming fuel charge. Some nozzles on the market today will actually drip liquid gasoline off the tip when operating, if you use this type of flawed design on a wet system trouble will surely result. The patented NX nozzle designs will fully atomize all fuel before it leaves the nozzle body, therefore guaranteeing that no un-atomized fuel with enter the air stream. Another seldom talked about advantage of wet systems is the tremendous increase in torque compared to a dry kit. The superior atomization of the wet systems allows a complete burn of all fuel present in the combustion chamber resulting in tremendous torque production. Often a wet system will produce 50% more torque than a comparable “Dry” kit. You should all know by now that torque is what propels your vehicle forward and nothing does it better than a wet nitrous system from Nitrous Express!"~
I have a very good relationship with these guys and they know there stuff. They actually RUN all of there kits just like me.
They do go on to discuss however the one place dry kits are "acceptable" is within a direct port setup.
Again, like i said before, there are dry guys that will fight you tooth and nail, but to me it just doesent make sense.
There is a reason the fastest cars on spray in the world all run wet system (wether it be plates, foggers, multi stage and etc)....
The scenario you have on video is not from a fuel solenoid getting stuck open, that video is a result of whats known as a "nitrous backfire."
A nitrous backfire occurs when the NITROUS solenoid (common between both wet/ dry kits), gets stuck open. While the engine is off, and the solenoids open, the intake fills with nitrous. Upon cranking to start the motor, the engine experiences a MASSIVE backfire due to the extremely lean scenario....hence your engine fire....
Again, an open fuel solenoid WILL not cause a fire in an engine.
Perfect example....take ANY carbureted vehicle. Run it down the track and get your temp up to 200*. Stop your motor in the pits, shut down the gas and start pumping the gas (dumping raw fuel into a hot intake). Guarentee the motor does not burst into flames. I know this because this is common procedure for starting heavily modified carb vehicles. As a matter of fact, a lot of higher hp guys shut down the motors going through the traps wide open. When they restart in the turnaround, since the motors are already loaded up, they hold the fuel to the BOARDS to start it.
So if you are worried about a fire, it is just as capable in a dry kit as a wet kit if its a nitrous backfire you are referring too....
Its stories and videos like this that circulate the net and scare people away from using spray.
I would guess that this guy was running a system with no filter on his NITROUS line that caused the solenoid to get jammed open.
*My example on injector duty was just that....an example. and Clearly as you showed, its NOT cost effective.
A very BASIC dry kit runs for 4-500.00 (with no safety precautions such as pressure switches/ filters). Now add the cost of injectors (180.00 MINIMUM). Now factor in remapping your car for larger injectors (tuner or pcm reflash 100-500)....it very quickly adds up to a system that has NO advantage over a wet system imo.
...also, this is straight from the Nitrous Express website...
~"If you have investigated Nitrous Express at all you will notice we manufacture no street oriented “DRY” nitrous systems. There is a very good reason for this, they are bad news and guaranteed to damage engine parts. Why you ask? Every intake manifold made, either by the factory or the aftermarket is a compromise. No two cylinders get the same amount of air. Try as they might even the best sheet metal race intakes flow differently across all cylinders. When dry nitrous is introduced into the intake air stream of any intake manifold every cylinder will get a different amount of nitrous. Some will get more, and some will get less. Now, where does the fuel come from to utilize this nitrous? It comes from the stock injectors. Being an inanimate piece of hardware all it knows to do is introduce a predetermined amount of fuel into the cylinder that the ECM tells it to. This is without regard to how much nitrous actually got to the cylinder. Therefore every cylinder will be either rich or lean, but none will have the correct air/fuel ratio. Depending on how far this ratio is off will determine how much damage is going to happen to this cylinder. Very small amounts of nitrous can be successfully introduced without damage but the resulting imbalance of nitrous/fuel is always harmful to the engine.
The proponents of “DRY” nitrous systems claim that modern intake manifolds were not designed to flow fuel therefore they cannot. What a load of crap! The air speed inside of an intake manifold operating at wide-open throttle is more that the speed of sound, 750 MPH give or take. When properly atomized fuel is introduced into the intake stream it will follow the airflow, it would be impossible for this atomized fuel to condense into a liquid and form a “Puddle” anywhere in the manifold. The key to wet technology is complete atomization of the incoming fuel charge. Some nozzles on the market today will actually drip liquid gasoline off the tip when operating, if you use this type of flawed design on a wet system trouble will surely result. The patented NX nozzle designs will fully atomize all fuel before it leaves the nozzle body, therefore guaranteeing that no un-atomized fuel with enter the air stream. Another seldom talked about advantage of wet systems is the tremendous increase in torque compared to a dry kit. The superior atomization of the wet systems allows a complete burn of all fuel present in the combustion chamber resulting in tremendous torque production. Often a wet system will produce 50% more torque than a comparable “Dry” kit. You should all know by now that torque is what propels your vehicle forward and nothing does it better than a wet nitrous system from Nitrous Express!"~
I have a very good relationship with these guys and they know there stuff. They actually RUN all of there kits just like me.
They do go on to discuss however the one place dry kits are "acceptable" is within a direct port setup.
Again, like i said before, there are dry guys that will fight you tooth and nail, but to me it just doesent make sense.
There is a reason the fastest cars on spray in the world all run wet system (wether it be plates, foggers, multi stage and etc)....
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 565
03SS/00GSE/93LX - you are still mistaken about your fire concerns.
The scenario you have on video is not from a fuel solenoid getting stuck open, that video is a result of whats known as a "nitrous backfire."
A nitrous backfire occurs when the NITROUS solenoid (common between both wet/ dry kits), gets stuck open. While the engine is off, and the solenoids open, the intake fills with nitrous. Upon cranking to start the motor, the engine experiences a MASSIVE backfire due to the extremely lean scenario....hence your engine fire....
Again, an open fuel solenoid WILL not cause a fire in an engine.
The scenario you have on video is not from a fuel solenoid getting stuck open, that video is a result of whats known as a "nitrous backfire."
A nitrous backfire occurs when the NITROUS solenoid (common between both wet/ dry kits), gets stuck open. While the engine is off, and the solenoids open, the intake fills with nitrous. Upon cranking to start the motor, the engine experiences a MASSIVE backfire due to the extremely lean scenario....hence your engine fire....
Again, an open fuel solenoid WILL not cause a fire in an engine.
Edit: How in the crap is an engine fire going to start from a backfire at startup when going LEAN? Nitrous isn't flammable- it isn't going to ignite your intake manifold- if your engine filled with nitrous while turned off and you started it, the worst you'd do is go massively lean and frag a piston or damage your engine, NOT cause an engine fire.
My example on injector duty was just that....an example. and Clearly as you showed, its NOT cost effective.
A very BASIC dry kit runs for 4-500.00 (with no safety precautions such as pressure switches/ filters). Now add the cost of injectors (180.00 MINIMUM). Now factor in remapping your car for larger injectors (tuner or pcm reflash 100-500)....it very quickly adds up to a system that has NO advantage over a wet system imo.
A very BASIC dry kit runs for 4-500.00 (with no safety precautions such as pressure switches/ filters). Now add the cost of injectors (180.00 MINIMUM). Now factor in remapping your car for larger injectors (tuner or pcm reflash 100-500)....it very quickly adds up to a system that has NO advantage over a wet system imo.
Your going to spend the same or more on a wet kit, and despite what you say, there is a very real chance you will have an engine fire if something fails. No thanks.
...also, this is straight from the Nitrous Express website...
~"If you have investigated Nitrous Express at all you will notice we manufacture no street oriented “DRY” nitrous systems. There is a very good reason for this, they are bad news and guaranteed to damage engine parts. Why you ask? Every intake manifold made, either by the factory or the aftermarket is a compromise. No two cylinders get the same amount of air. Try as they might even the best sheet metal race intakes flow differently across all cylinders. When dry nitrous is introduced into the intake air stream of any intake manifold every cylinder will get a different amount of nitrous. Some will get more, and some will get less. Now, where does the fuel come from to utilize this nitrous? It comes from the stock injectors. Being an inanimate piece of hardware all it knows to do is introduce a predetermined amount of fuel into the cylinder that the ECM tells it to. This is without regard to how much nitrous actually got to the cylinder. Therefore every cylinder will be either rich or lean, but none will have the correct air/fuel ratio. Depending on how far this ratio is off will determine how much damage is going to happen to this cylinder. Very small amounts of nitrous can be successfully introduced without damage but the resulting imbalance of nitrous/fuel is always harmful to the engine.
The proponents of “DRY” nitrous systems claim that modern intake manifolds were not designed to flow fuel therefore they cannot. What a load of crap! The air speed inside of an intake manifold operating at wide-open throttle is more that the speed of sound, 750 MPH give or take. When properly atomized fuel is introduced into the intake stream it will follow the airflow, it would be impossible for this atomized fuel to condense into a liquid and form a “Puddle” anywhere in the manifold. The key to wet technology is complete atomization of the incoming fuel charge. Some nozzles on the market today will actually drip liquid gasoline off the tip when operating, if you use this type of flawed design on a wet system trouble will surely result. The patented NX nozzle designs will fully atomize all fuel before it leaves the nozzle body, therefore guaranteeing that no un-atomized fuel with enter the air stream. Another seldom talked about advantage of wet systems is the tremendous increase in torque compared to a dry kit. The superior atomization of the wet systems allows a complete burn of all fuel present in the combustion chamber resulting in tremendous torque production. Often a wet system will produce 50% more torque than a comparable “Dry” kit. You should all know by now that torque is what propels your vehicle forward and nothing does it better than a wet nitrous system from Nitrous Express!"~
I have a very good relationship with these guys and they know there stuff. They actually RUN all of there kits just like me.
They do go on to discuss however the one place dry kits are "acceptable" is within a direct port setup.
Again, like i said before, there are dry guys that will fight you tooth and nail, but to me it just doesent make sense.
~"If you have investigated Nitrous Express at all you will notice we manufacture no street oriented “DRY” nitrous systems. There is a very good reason for this, they are bad news and guaranteed to damage engine parts. Why you ask? Every intake manifold made, either by the factory or the aftermarket is a compromise. No two cylinders get the same amount of air. Try as they might even the best sheet metal race intakes flow differently across all cylinders. When dry nitrous is introduced into the intake air stream of any intake manifold every cylinder will get a different amount of nitrous. Some will get more, and some will get less. Now, where does the fuel come from to utilize this nitrous? It comes from the stock injectors. Being an inanimate piece of hardware all it knows to do is introduce a predetermined amount of fuel into the cylinder that the ECM tells it to. This is without regard to how much nitrous actually got to the cylinder. Therefore every cylinder will be either rich or lean, but none will have the correct air/fuel ratio. Depending on how far this ratio is off will determine how much damage is going to happen to this cylinder. Very small amounts of nitrous can be successfully introduced without damage but the resulting imbalance of nitrous/fuel is always harmful to the engine.
The proponents of “DRY” nitrous systems claim that modern intake manifolds were not designed to flow fuel therefore they cannot. What a load of crap! The air speed inside of an intake manifold operating at wide-open throttle is more that the speed of sound, 750 MPH give or take. When properly atomized fuel is introduced into the intake stream it will follow the airflow, it would be impossible for this atomized fuel to condense into a liquid and form a “Puddle” anywhere in the manifold. The key to wet technology is complete atomization of the incoming fuel charge. Some nozzles on the market today will actually drip liquid gasoline off the tip when operating, if you use this type of flawed design on a wet system trouble will surely result. The patented NX nozzle designs will fully atomize all fuel before it leaves the nozzle body, therefore guaranteeing that no un-atomized fuel with enter the air stream. Another seldom talked about advantage of wet systems is the tremendous increase in torque compared to a dry kit. The superior atomization of the wet systems allows a complete burn of all fuel present in the combustion chamber resulting in tremendous torque production. Often a wet system will produce 50% more torque than a comparable “Dry” kit. You should all know by now that torque is what propels your vehicle forward and nothing does it better than a wet nitrous system from Nitrous Express!"~
I have a very good relationship with these guys and they know there stuff. They actually RUN all of there kits just like me.
They do go on to discuss however the one place dry kits are "acceptable" is within a direct port setup.
Again, like i said before, there are dry guys that will fight you tooth and nail, but to me it just doesent make sense.
Last edited by 03SS/00GSE/93LX; Sep 20, 2010 at 09:43 PM.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 163
Ok....you were there huh?
So explain to me how you were under the hood of a concealed unit to tell which solenoid stuck open? Unless you have x-ray vision, I am missing something.
How did you and your friend come to the conclusion that this was caused by a FUEL solenoid?
Your are absolutely right, nitrous is not flamable....its an OXIDIZER.
What does a fire need to burn? Fuel and OXYGEN
Have you ever witnessed a nitrous backfire? All they supposedly do is frag a piston huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bRbd3-Myg0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hzMsqo04jk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RjNouey7hI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FLPdTysL_4
These are just a few examples of what nitrous backfires can do. It took about 3 seconds to find them. Clearly they ALL have potential to start quite a fire, and the last video clearly shows this.
How do you know that guy didnt have a backfire at the end of his run that was smoledering in the return lane? How do you know the nitrous side wasnt stuck open filling the motor with nitrous and LEANING out the mixture. The leaner the mixture the hotter the motor. The hotter the motor the more prone you are to have a FIRE. If your melting a piston you better believe you can start a small underhood fire quite easily.
You cant sit here and tell me a motor designed to intake air/ fuel would ignite from a fuel solenoid. It has nothing to do with wet/ dry because potential fires are caused by the excessive oxidizing applied by NITROUS.
The more available oxygen the hotter the flame (hence why we use colder plugs to avoid detonation on spray).
The jetting, installation, lack of filters, poor maintenance, and activation of a system all have a direct affect on the longevity and reliabilty of a system.
...as for nx ptching what they sell....i completely disagree. Dry kits tend to be cheaper then wet. If they saw a market and could easily make money, it would not be hard for Mike Wood to assemble a kit and watch the money roll in. Instead, he trys to educate his customers and deter them from products that present far more hazard, for that I respect him.
So explain to me how you were under the hood of a concealed unit to tell which solenoid stuck open? Unless you have x-ray vision, I am missing something.
How did you and your friend come to the conclusion that this was caused by a FUEL solenoid?
Your are absolutely right, nitrous is not flamable....its an OXIDIZER.
What does a fire need to burn? Fuel and OXYGEN
Have you ever witnessed a nitrous backfire? All they supposedly do is frag a piston huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bRbd3-Myg0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hzMsqo04jk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RjNouey7hI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FLPdTysL_4
These are just a few examples of what nitrous backfires can do. It took about 3 seconds to find them. Clearly they ALL have potential to start quite a fire, and the last video clearly shows this.
How do you know that guy didnt have a backfire at the end of his run that was smoledering in the return lane? How do you know the nitrous side wasnt stuck open filling the motor with nitrous and LEANING out the mixture. The leaner the mixture the hotter the motor. The hotter the motor the more prone you are to have a FIRE. If your melting a piston you better believe you can start a small underhood fire quite easily.
You cant sit here and tell me a motor designed to intake air/ fuel would ignite from a fuel solenoid. It has nothing to do with wet/ dry because potential fires are caused by the excessive oxidizing applied by NITROUS.
The more available oxygen the hotter the flame (hence why we use colder plugs to avoid detonation on spray).
The jetting, installation, lack of filters, poor maintenance, and activation of a system all have a direct affect on the longevity and reliabilty of a system.
...as for nx ptching what they sell....i completely disagree. Dry kits tend to be cheaper then wet. If they saw a market and could easily make money, it would not be hard for Mike Wood to assemble a kit and watch the money roll in. Instead, he trys to educate his customers and deter them from products that present far more hazard, for that I respect him.
Monte Of The Month - February 2010
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 11,981
From: Pittsburgh, PA
You two have a great debate going on here and I think you both have great explanations on both systems! I can't say anything about either, I wonder if bumpin96monte (Chad) could give his explanation on this as well? I think the majority of the forum have a great respect for him and also 03SS/00GSE/93LX (Shawn)! Not to disrespect bfurches (Brandon) but Shawn and Chad know their stuff pretty well! Keep up the great debate and be cool, thanks for all your info posted thus far...
safety is most important when it come to nitrous 
thanks guys
safety is most important when it come to nitrous thanks guys
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 565
The fire video I posed was a local guys car at a track rental for a local car forum. Everyone there knew each other to a certain extent. It wasn't me and a friend randomly speculating; it's what was happened.
I really don't know what to tell you regarding your belief that NITROUS is what makes cars catch on fire- it simply isn't true. It's the FUEL puddled in the intake that ignites and puts the car up in flames. This is a well known fact. I've witness plenty of nitrous backfires- guess what starts the fire? Gasoline in the intake.
Untrue. The fires we all see ARE caused by fuel, not nitrous. Nitrous oxide isn't even flammable- go ahead and open a bottle and hold a lighter in front of the exiting spray- I promise you, nothing will happen (except the flame might go out).
Sure, but again, nitrous isn't flammable or explosive. Gasoline is. All the catastrophic failures we see at the track are caused by gasoline ignitining in the intake, not from nitrous randomly exploding.
The benefits of nitrous oxide don't come from injecting an explosive or flammable substance into the motor, they come from:
1. The breakdown at near 600* F of nitrous oxide into two parts nitrogen and one part oxygen, feeding the engine with a fresh supply of oxgen.
2. The dramatic cooling of the intake charge due to the introduction of the spray.
Nitrous oxide isn't like propane or gasoline. It won't burn when introduced to flame. It won't cause an engine to burst into flames. Yes, it can damage your engine if you go lean- but going lean will NOT make the engine catch on fire.
Bottom line: Lots of guys run wet kits with great sucess, BUT there's always going to be the potential for an engine fire if something fails. I've personally seen it happen quite a few times. Lots of guys also run dry kits with great sucess (myself included, on two different cars). Your still risking damaging your engine with a dry kit if something fails, but you aren't going to have an engine fire or explosion like you would with a wet kit should something fail.
Thanks!
I really don't know what to tell you regarding your belief that NITROUS is what makes cars catch on fire- it simply isn't true. It's the FUEL puddled in the intake that ignites and puts the car up in flames. This is a well known fact. I've witness plenty of nitrous backfires- guess what starts the fire? Gasoline in the intake.
You cant sit here and tell me a motor designed to intake air/ fuel would ignite from a fuel solenoid. It has nothing to do with wet/ dry because potential fires are caused by the excessive oxidizing applied by NITROUS.
The more available oxygen the hotter the flame (hence why we use colder plugs to avoid detonation on spray).
The benefits of nitrous oxide don't come from injecting an explosive or flammable substance into the motor, they come from:
1. The breakdown at near 600* F of nitrous oxide into two parts nitrogen and one part oxygen, feeding the engine with a fresh supply of oxgen.
2. The dramatic cooling of the intake charge due to the introduction of the spray.
Nitrous oxide isn't like propane or gasoline. It won't burn when introduced to flame. It won't cause an engine to burst into flames. Yes, it can damage your engine if you go lean- but going lean will NOT make the engine catch on fire.
Bottom line: Lots of guys run wet kits with great sucess, BUT there's always going to be the potential for an engine fire if something fails. I've personally seen it happen quite a few times. Lots of guys also run dry kits with great sucess (myself included, on two different cars). Your still risking damaging your engine with a dry kit if something fails, but you aren't going to have an engine fire or explosion like you would with a wet kit should something fail.
You two have a great debate going on here and I think you both have great explanations on both systems! I can't say anything about either, I wonder if bumpin96monte (Chad) could give his explanation on this as well? I think the majority of the forum have a great respect for him and also 03SS/00GSE/93LX (Shawn)! Not to disrespect bfurches (Brandon) but Shawn and Chad know their stuff pretty well! Keep up the great debate and be cool, thanks for all your info posted thus far... safety is most important when it come to nitrous thanks guys
safety is most important when it come to nitrous thanks guys
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 163
You two have a great debate going on here and I think you both have great explanations on both systems! I can't say anything about either, I wonder if bumpin96monte (Chad) could give his explanation on this as well? I think the majority of the forum have a great respect for him and also 03SS/00GSE/93LX (Shawn)! Not to disrespect bfurches (Brandon) but Shawn and Chad know their stuff pretty well! Keep up the great debate and be cool, thanks for all your info posted thus far... safety is most important when it come to nitrous thanks guys
safety is most important when it come to nitrous thanks guysAgain... 03SS/00GSE/93LX ...I am not trying to come off as rude, I just still think you have heard some incorrect info, and I am trying to clear it up. No hard feelings I hope.
Now...as for our lengthy debate lol...
I still don't think you understand me. I will say this again, as I did in the last post...nitrous acts as an OXIDIZER. I know nitrous alone is not flamable, and I thought I made that clear in the last post, but you are missing the point.
____________________________
Lets say a fuel solenoid DID stick open. The engine is running, and a small puddle develops somewhere in the intake as you claim.
What is going to happen as this fuel puddle develops?
-First, most of the fuel will be drawn into the combustion chamber via vacuum. The engine will STALL. Plugs will foul out, and enough spark can not be generated to ignite the excessively rich mixture, so the motor will shut down.
Now you have an engine, with an EXTREMELY small puddle of fuel sitting in the intake (since most of the fuel was already drawn into the engine). What is going to ignite the fuel and cause this massive fire that burns your car to the ground?
There would have to be a very strong ignition source (as liquid gas, does not burn its the VAPOR/ oxygen mixture that burns. So now we have an extremely rich situation, with a stalled engine and lack of ignition source and oxygen content.
You previously mentioned, hot spots in the intake. First, that would have to be a MASSIVELY hot spot, not to mention the cooling effects that the liquid fuel would have would negate this heat source. (perfect example on boosted cars. If AFR goes up, as well as egt, how do you bring it own? You add fuel right?)
HOW will this burn?
___________________________
Again, don't get me wrong. Nitrous will not cause the fire by itself....HOWEVER.....whether its a wet or dry nitrous kit, SOMEHOW fuel is being introduced to the engine, right?
At all times the engine is running (or being cranked to start), fuel is being supplied to the motor. There is no engine that is 100% efficient, which means there will ALWAYS be unburned fuel in the combustion chambers and lower intake runners.
If a nitrous solenoid sticks open, the manifold fills at a MUCH faster rate then if a fuel solenoid were to stick open. If that mixture is ignited, the nitrous breaks down and releases 36% of its weight in oxygen! That is a MASSIVE lean condition that causes extreme heat and in most cases a huge backfire!
As stated above, nitrous just caused your massive backfire and very good potential for a FIRE. Not your fuel solenoid.
___________________________
Now again, this scenario is universal. It does NOT matter if you have a WET kit of a DRY kit. The results would be even more devastating if the system was ARMED and a backfire occurred (because there would be supplemental fuel in both cases that would cause the fire to burn longer and more intense).
It is not accepted info in the community that fuel solenoids start fire because they DON'T. Like I said before, unless you have x-ray vision, you can NOT look into an intake manifold or fuel solenoid and watch it malfunction. Your story is nothing more than that...a story. And that is not meant to be an insult, I am just saying there is no backing to what you're telling me other than you think that's right.
It has been PROVEN not speculated, that a stuck open nitrous solenoid (whether it be improper installation methods or lack of maintenance), catastrophic failure is almost inevitable, in in some cases, fires will START.
I have never seen one documented case linking a fire to a stuck open fuel solenoid, and I have showed multiple scenarios where you can practiaclly FILL your manifold and it will not burst into flames.
_____________________
Again, I go back to the carburetor example.
If I take my motor hot, and I sit there with my foot to the floor for 5 seconds (which would supply WAY more fuel then a single jet from a fuel solenoid held open for the same 5 seconds). The worst that will happen, is the plugs will be fouled and it will be verry difficult to start the car.
Now take that SAME scenario, add an intake full of vapor nitrous, and watch the light show, because its GUARANTEED to go BOOM.
Fuel needs OXYGEN to burn. If there is a significantly higher amount of fuel then oxygen in your intake, you are going to have one hell of a time starting it nevermind burning it to the ground.
Its very simple, a wet kit is not dangerous because it employs a fuel solenoid. If anything, for the average to moderate tuner, it should be the PRIME choice for many reasons (distribution, cost, accuracy and etc).
Both systems have there flaws. I agree.
Nitrous is far from a perfect design. However, its very cost effective and even RELIABLE when installed and tuned correctly. Simply claiming people should stay away from wet kits because there car may burn down is simply not true. I feel like my examples above go above and beyond to prove this.
Again, 03SS/00GSE/93LX do NOT take this as a personal attack. I am simply trying to explain this the best I can from a keyboard, and its not easy lol.
You have brought up a ton of valid points, but the big one is that fuel solenoids do NOT cause fires, and linking that assumption as your primary reasoning to NOT choose a wet kit is also wrong.
The real bottom line is true potential for a fire is within the limits of both kits equally. Both should be able to be avoided with careful preparation, proper tuning, and goo maintenance habits.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 565
Where are you copy-pasting all this from? An NX sales rep's emails? LOL
What happens when the engine backfires into an intake manifold filled with gasoline?
How do we know the puddle of fuel is extremely small? I think depends on the RPM of the engine along with the design of the intake manifold. The L67 lower intake is more or less a bowl, and I guarantee that a substantial puddle of liquid could build up in it at idle. Due to the manifolds design, the engine at idle is NOT going have enough vacuum to safely remove the fuel flooding into the intake manifold.
I propose a simple test- we'll fill an intake manifold, off of the car, with gasoline and throw a lit match into it. We'll do the same with an intake manifold sealed and filled with nitrous oxide. Which one do you think is going to blow?
So you're contending that a massively lean condition can cause an engine fire? This is simply untrue- I can command whatever AFR I want with HP Tuners. I absolutely promise you that if I go out to my garage and dial my WOT AFR way, way lean (how about 20:1?) that the car will not catch on fire. I'll break something, sure...but nothing is going to burst into flames.
While dialing in a buddy's GenV/IC/full bolt-on SSEi recently we saw 16.5:1 WOT AFR on the wideband before we started tuning- this is SCARY lean for an N/A, let alone a boosted car, and we're lucky nothing broke- but for the intention of this thread, more importantly, nothing burst into flames either!
A lean condition is dangerous because it raises combustion chamber temperatures and leads to detonation- this can result in fragged pistons, spun rod bearings from massive knock, or blown headgaskets for high cylinder pressure- but it does NOT result in an engine fire.
Disagree for all the reasons stated above. And no offense, but stating that you can't make an intake manifold filled with gasoline explode or burst into flames is kind of silly. I've got a few spare LIMs in my garage and a few gallons of C16...want to see one burn? LOL
Not a valid comparison at all. If we're talking carbed, we're talking an intake manifold designed to flow gasoline. If we're talking modern EFI, we're talking an intake manifold designed to flow air only, not liquid.
Besides, most wet kit fires don't occur at startup- they occur while staging or on the return lanes, because the fuel solenoid sticks open, the engine sputters and then backfires into an intake manifold filled with gasoline, and the car goes up into flames.
And I disagree anyway. If you fill your intake manifold with nitrous and start the car, it isn't guaranteed to go BOOM, in fact, it probably won't. If anything, you'll go real lean and damage your bottom end and that'll be it. Nothing will explode.
Disagree. Modern dry kits are safer and more effective when employed properly. I've never seen an engine fire on a car with a dry kit- I've personally seen half a dozen over the years on cars with wet kits.
Plenty of guys run wet kits with great sucess- and there is definitely big potential to make huge power with them- but I personally never would, and I'll advise everyone else to stay away from them too.
I do definitely agree that nitrous injection should be well thought out before and after being installed.
Lets say a fuel solenoid DID stick open. The engine is running, and a small puddle develops somewhere in the intake as you claim.
What is going to happen as this fuel puddle develops?
-First, most of the fuel will be drawn into the combustion chamber via vacuum. The engine will STALL. Plugs will foul out, and enough spark can not be generated to ignite the excessively rich mixture, so the motor will shut down.
Now you have an engine, with an EXTREMELY small puddle of fuel sitting in the intake (since most of the fuel was already drawn into the engine). What is going to ignite the fuel and cause this massive fire that burns your car to the ground?
There would have to be a very strong ignition source (as liquid gas, does not burn its the VAPOR/ oxygen mixture that burns. So now we have an extremely rich situation, with a stalled engine and lack of ignition source and oxygen content.
What is going to happen as this fuel puddle develops?
-First, most of the fuel will be drawn into the combustion chamber via vacuum. The engine will STALL. Plugs will foul out, and enough spark can not be generated to ignite the excessively rich mixture, so the motor will shut down.
Now you have an engine, with an EXTREMELY small puddle of fuel sitting in the intake (since most of the fuel was already drawn into the engine). What is going to ignite the fuel and cause this massive fire that burns your car to the ground?
There would have to be a very strong ignition source (as liquid gas, does not burn its the VAPOR/ oxygen mixture that burns. So now we have an extremely rich situation, with a stalled engine and lack of ignition source and oxygen content.
How do we know the puddle of fuel is extremely small? I think depends on the RPM of the engine along with the design of the intake manifold. The L67 lower intake is more or less a bowl, and I guarantee that a substantial puddle of liquid could build up in it at idle. Due to the manifolds design, the engine at idle is NOT going have enough vacuum to safely remove the fuel flooding into the intake manifold.
I propose a simple test- we'll fill an intake manifold, off of the car, with gasoline and throw a lit match into it. We'll do the same with an intake manifold sealed and filled with nitrous oxide. Which one do you think is going to blow?
Again, don't get me wrong. Nitrous will not cause the fire by itself....HOWEVER.....whether its a wet or dry nitrous kit, SOMEHOW fuel is being introduced to the engine, right?
At all times the engine is running (or being cranked to start), fuel is being supplied to the motor. There is no engine that is 100% efficient, which means there will ALWAYS be unburned fuel in the combustion chambers and lower intake runners.
If a nitrous solenoid sticks open, the manifold fills at a MUCH faster rate then if a fuel solenoid were to stick open. If that mixture is ignited, the nitrous breaks down and releases 36% of its weight in oxygen! That is a MASSIVE lean condition that causes extreme heat and in most cases a huge backfire!
As stated above, nitrous just caused your massive backfire and very good potential for a FIRE. Not your fuel solenoid.
At all times the engine is running (or being cranked to start), fuel is being supplied to the motor. There is no engine that is 100% efficient, which means there will ALWAYS be unburned fuel in the combustion chambers and lower intake runners.
If a nitrous solenoid sticks open, the manifold fills at a MUCH faster rate then if a fuel solenoid were to stick open. If that mixture is ignited, the nitrous breaks down and releases 36% of its weight in oxygen! That is a MASSIVE lean condition that causes extreme heat and in most cases a huge backfire!
As stated above, nitrous just caused your massive backfire and very good potential for a FIRE. Not your fuel solenoid.
While dialing in a buddy's GenV/IC/full bolt-on SSEi recently we saw 16.5:1 WOT AFR on the wideband before we started tuning- this is SCARY lean for an N/A, let alone a boosted car, and we're lucky nothing broke- but for the intention of this thread, more importantly, nothing burst into flames either!
A lean condition is dangerous because it raises combustion chamber temperatures and leads to detonation- this can result in fragged pistons, spun rod bearings from massive knock, or blown headgaskets for high cylinder pressure- but it does NOT result in an engine fire.
Now again, this scenario is universal. It does NOT matter if you have a WET kit of a DRY kit. The results would be even more devastating if the system was ARMED and a backfire occurred (because there would be supplemental fuel in both cases that would cause the fire to burn longer and more intense).
It is not accepted info in the community that fuel solenoids start fire because they DON'T. Like I said before, unless you have x-ray vision, you can NOT look into an intake manifold or fuel solenoid and watch it malfunction. Your story is nothing more than that...a story. And that is not meant to be an insult, I am just saying there is no backing to what you're telling me other than you think that's right.
It has been PROVEN not speculated, that a stuck open nitrous solenoid (whether it be improper installation methods or lack of maintenance), catastrophic failure is almost inevitable, in in some cases, fires will START.
I have never seen one documented case linking a fire to a stuck open fuel solenoid, and I have showed multiple scenarios where you can practiaclly FILL your manifold and it will not burst into flames.
It is not accepted info in the community that fuel solenoids start fire because they DON'T. Like I said before, unless you have x-ray vision, you can NOT look into an intake manifold or fuel solenoid and watch it malfunction. Your story is nothing more than that...a story. And that is not meant to be an insult, I am just saying there is no backing to what you're telling me other than you think that's right.
It has been PROVEN not speculated, that a stuck open nitrous solenoid (whether it be improper installation methods or lack of maintenance), catastrophic failure is almost inevitable, in in some cases, fires will START.
I have never seen one documented case linking a fire to a stuck open fuel solenoid, and I have showed multiple scenarios where you can practiaclly FILL your manifold and it will not burst into flames.
Again, I go back to the carburetor example.
If I take my motor hot, and I sit there with my foot to the floor for 5 seconds (which would supply WAY more fuel then a single jet from a fuel solenoid held open for the same 5 seconds). The worst that will happen, is the plugs will be fouled and it will be verry difficult to start the car.
Now take that SAME scenario, add an intake full of vapor nitrous, and watch the light show, because its GUARANTEED to go BOOM.
If I take my motor hot, and I sit there with my foot to the floor for 5 seconds (which would supply WAY more fuel then a single jet from a fuel solenoid held open for the same 5 seconds). The worst that will happen, is the plugs will be fouled and it will be verry difficult to start the car.
Now take that SAME scenario, add an intake full of vapor nitrous, and watch the light show, because its GUARANTEED to go BOOM.
Besides, most wet kit fires don't occur at startup- they occur while staging or on the return lanes, because the fuel solenoid sticks open, the engine sputters and then backfires into an intake manifold filled with gasoline, and the car goes up into flames.
And I disagree anyway. If you fill your intake manifold with nitrous and start the car, it isn't guaranteed to go BOOM, in fact, it probably won't. If anything, you'll go real lean and damage your bottom end and that'll be it. Nothing will explode.
Its very simple, a wet kit is not dangerous because it employs a fuel solenoid. If anything, for the average to moderate tuner, it should be the PRIME choice for many reasons (distribution, cost, accuracy and etc).
Both systems have there flaws. I agree.
Nitrous is far from a perfect design. However, its very cost effective and even RELIABLE when installed and tuned correctly. Simply claiming people should stay away from wet kits because there car may burn down is simply not true. I feel like my examples above go above and beyond to prove this.
Again, 03SS/00GSE/93LX do NOT take this as a personal attack. I am simply trying to explain this the best I can from a keyboard, and its not easy lol.
You have brought up a ton of valid points, but the big one is that fuel solenoids do NOT cause fires, and linking that assumption as your primary reasoning to NOT choose a wet kit is also wrong.
The real bottom line is true potential for a fire is within the limits of both kits equally. Both should be able to be avoided with careful preparation, proper tuning, and goo maintenance habits.
Both systems have there flaws. I agree.
Nitrous is far from a perfect design. However, its very cost effective and even RELIABLE when installed and tuned correctly. Simply claiming people should stay away from wet kits because there car may burn down is simply not true. I feel like my examples above go above and beyond to prove this.
Again, 03SS/00GSE/93LX do NOT take this as a personal attack. I am simply trying to explain this the best I can from a keyboard, and its not easy lol.
You have brought up a ton of valid points, but the big one is that fuel solenoids do NOT cause fires, and linking that assumption as your primary reasoning to NOT choose a wet kit is also wrong.
The real bottom line is true potential for a fire is within the limits of both kits equally. Both should be able to be avoided with careful preparation, proper tuning, and goo maintenance habits.
Plenty of guys run wet kits with great sucess- and there is definitely big potential to make huge power with them- but I personally never would, and I'll advise everyone else to stay away from them too.
I do definitely agree that nitrous injection should be well thought out before and after being installed.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 163
First off...let me start by saying, I have tried really hard to treat you fairly and with respect. Your little "copy and paste" comment is really uncalled for. I am trying to lay something out for you and the rest of the forum to understand clearly. If you cant handle that, then lets just agree to disagree...
What happens when the engine backfires into an intake manifold filled with gasoline? .....it would burn pretty damn good. How did it backfire though? Did the nitrous solenoid AND the fuel solenoid get stuck open at the SAME exact time?
You just continue to prove my point over and over, that you can have one without the other...
The puddle of fuel in the intake manifold should be VERY small in every aspect. You are flowing a certain pressure of fuel through a tiny orifice, that on top of that, has to pass through a nozzle. You have a VERY small amount of fuel...and a puddle should be practically non existent.
__________
Heres a little test for you....
Take your fuel solenoid, connect it to your fogger nozzle, arm the system and watch how long it would take for a typical 75-150hp shot to fill a dixie cup. Your gunna be there a while....
Now factor this amount of fuel into a running engine that draws the mist into the combustion chamber and show me your massive puddle you keep going back too!
_______________
"I propose a simple test- we'll fill an intake manifold, off of the car, with gasoline and throw a lit match into it. We'll do the same with an intake manifold sealed and filled with nitrous oxide. Which one do you think is going to blow?"
...again, you are proving my point. You cant have one without the other...
Your little "experiment" is nonsens....
Lets take an intake manifold out of its enviroment, and subject it to a massive amount of fuel with a supplemental ignition source?
Lets try the same experiment with the manifold on the car and the fuel fouled plugs it has...
Your experiment wouldnt work so well at that point in time with a lack of oxygen from a closed throttle plate, and weak ignition from fouled plugs, now would it?
Once again, proving in a REAL LIFE situation, your scenario is false.
________________
"So you're contending that a massively lean condition can cause an engine fire? This is simply untrue- I can command whatever AFR I want with HP Tuners. I absolutely promise you that if I go out to my garage and dial my WOT AFR way, way lean (how about 20:1?) that the car will not catch on fire. I'll break something, sure...but nothing is going to burst into flames."
...thats funy, because in my quote you copy and pasted it CLEARLY SAYS "BACKFIRE". Where did I say a lean condition is going to make your car burst into flames? However, that same lean condition that causes the "backfire" is going to ignite all of the unburned fuel in the runners and open chambers, wont it?
____________________
I can sit here all day and give you DOCUMENTED incidents over and over again of NITROUS backfires from NITROUS solenoids getting jammed open.
Your argument has no backing other then you claim to have "seen" it first hand.
I will ask you again, do you have x-ray vision?
HOW DID YOU COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE FUEL SOLENOID JAMMED OPEN?
Because thats what a friend told you? Because thats what you just assumed? Because thats why you read online?
It has been proven many times lean backfires are the leading cause in nitrous motor failures.
I have put together everything from direct port foggers to multi stage plates, and NEVER have I had an issue with the "fuel puddling" myths. Thats because it is nothing more than a MYTH and not real life.
Dry systems are a joke. Its a cheapskate way out for these entry level companies to appeal to the kids with no money that want to bolt a nitrous setup on and go.
Again....why is it that the FASTEST cars in the world are all running wet kits? Would they really chance running a system on such a HUGE investment if the reliability hadnt been proven time and time again.
Now ask yourself why they dont run the dry kits if they are so "safe".....
If I wanted to, I could sell dry kits ALL DAY. the Nozzles are cheaper, you loose a solenoid, less lines, less jets....overall its a CHEAPER kit to produce with more headroom for profit...but i DONT. I'm not going to gamble on a product thats not safe to make a few extra bucks off my customers.
What happens when the engine backfires into an intake manifold filled with gasoline? .....it would burn pretty damn good. How did it backfire though? Did the nitrous solenoid AND the fuel solenoid get stuck open at the SAME exact time?
You just continue to prove my point over and over, that you can have one without the other...
The puddle of fuel in the intake manifold should be VERY small in every aspect. You are flowing a certain pressure of fuel through a tiny orifice, that on top of that, has to pass through a nozzle. You have a VERY small amount of fuel...and a puddle should be practically non existent.
__________
Heres a little test for you....
Take your fuel solenoid, connect it to your fogger nozzle, arm the system and watch how long it would take for a typical 75-150hp shot to fill a dixie cup. Your gunna be there a while....
Now factor this amount of fuel into a running engine that draws the mist into the combustion chamber and show me your massive puddle you keep going back too!
_______________
"I propose a simple test- we'll fill an intake manifold, off of the car, with gasoline and throw a lit match into it. We'll do the same with an intake manifold sealed and filled with nitrous oxide. Which one do you think is going to blow?"
...again, you are proving my point. You cant have one without the other...
Your little "experiment" is nonsens....
Lets take an intake manifold out of its enviroment, and subject it to a massive amount of fuel with a supplemental ignition source?
Lets try the same experiment with the manifold on the car and the fuel fouled plugs it has...
Your experiment wouldnt work so well at that point in time with a lack of oxygen from a closed throttle plate, and weak ignition from fouled plugs, now would it?
Once again, proving in a REAL LIFE situation, your scenario is false.
________________
"So you're contending that a massively lean condition can cause an engine fire? This is simply untrue- I can command whatever AFR I want with HP Tuners. I absolutely promise you that if I go out to my garage and dial my WOT AFR way, way lean (how about 20:1?) that the car will not catch on fire. I'll break something, sure...but nothing is going to burst into flames."
...thats funy, because in my quote you copy and pasted it CLEARLY SAYS "BACKFIRE". Where did I say a lean condition is going to make your car burst into flames? However, that same lean condition that causes the "backfire" is going to ignite all of the unburned fuel in the runners and open chambers, wont it?
____________________
I can sit here all day and give you DOCUMENTED incidents over and over again of NITROUS backfires from NITROUS solenoids getting jammed open.
Your argument has no backing other then you claim to have "seen" it first hand.
I will ask you again, do you have x-ray vision?
HOW DID YOU COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE FUEL SOLENOID JAMMED OPEN?
Because thats what a friend told you? Because thats what you just assumed? Because thats why you read online?
It has been proven many times lean backfires are the leading cause in nitrous motor failures.
I have put together everything from direct port foggers to multi stage plates, and NEVER have I had an issue with the "fuel puddling" myths. Thats because it is nothing more than a MYTH and not real life.
Dry systems are a joke. Its a cheapskate way out for these entry level companies to appeal to the kids with no money that want to bolt a nitrous setup on and go.
Again....why is it that the FASTEST cars in the world are all running wet kits? Would they really chance running a system on such a HUGE investment if the reliability hadnt been proven time and time again.
Now ask yourself why they dont run the dry kits if they are so "safe".....
If I wanted to, I could sell dry kits ALL DAY. the Nozzles are cheaper, you loose a solenoid, less lines, less jets....overall its a CHEAPER kit to produce with more headroom for profit...but i DONT. I'm not going to gamble on a product thats not safe to make a few extra bucks off my customers.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 565
I agree that we should agree to disagree. Just a few minor points and then I'm done:
I honestly wasn't trying to be insulting- it really looked/sounded like you were copy-pasting stuff. LOL
I apologize for offending, it really wasn't my intention.
I'm kind of a cheapskate, but I'm definitely not a kid and I don't definitely don't have money problems. I've also been spraying dry nitrous for the past 6 years on two different cars and have had great sucess with it on both.
By fastest I'm assuming we're talking drag racing and not F1, since the topic at hand was nitrous oxide. So, we're talking Funny Car and Top Fuel. They both blow up and wreck all the time. They also rebuild their engines after every pass. They aren't concerned about engine safety or reliability, they're worried about maximum performance per pass. My cousin worked on a Funny Car team before taking his current gig as an airline mechanic.
It's not at all comparable to a street car where performance usually takes a backseat to safety, reliability, and durability.
First off...let me start by saying, I have tried really hard to treat you fairly and with respect. Your little "copy and paste" comment is really uncalled for.
I apologize for offending, it really wasn't my intention.
Dry systems are a joke. Its a cheapskate way out for these entry level companies to appeal to the kids with no money that want to bolt a nitrous setup on and go.
Again....why is it that the FASTEST cars in the world are all running wet kits? Would they really chance running a system on such a HUGE investment if the reliability hadnt been proven time and time again.
Now ask yourself why they dont run the dry kits if they are so "safe".....
Now ask yourself why they dont run the dry kits if they are so "safe".....
It's not at all comparable to a street car where performance usually takes a backseat to safety, reliability, and durability.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 565
I say we sum our arguments in one sentence and then move on. 
Here's mine:
Both wet and dry nitrous systems can deliver massive horsepower gains when installed properly; however, wet nitrous kits can cause cars to catch on fire and explode and should avoided, whereas dry nitrous systems are not associated with engine fires or flaming explosions.
Here's mine:
Both wet and dry nitrous systems can deliver massive horsepower gains when installed properly; however, wet nitrous kits can cause cars to catch on fire and explode and should avoided, whereas dry nitrous systems are not associated with engine fires or flaming explosions.