I'm sorry about the nitrous thing- I'll admit I got too worked up over that thread. With JD87SS though, he is going against every proven mod for the 3800- and saying our major supporters are some backyard morons. He keeps making false claims about these mods lessening MPG and killing low end power, but its not true- the bulk of 3800 veterans agree on the very same mod path- I have done it on my own car, and others- and this guy is trying to tell me I'm wrong- that irritates me.

I try not to add unsupported information- that list I have gives proven results- ~300 crank hp and high 13s in the 1/4 with comparable gas mileage. Plus, it irritates me when he rags on mods that are staples in our community- for example, the bulk of 3800 tuners use HPT or PT- and he says they're garbage- thats the kind of crap I'm talking about. Personally, I'll use the stuff that all the people on the forums, and the companies running stupid fast 1/4 times use rather than the one sole guy who says different.

I'm just here to help those with powertrains like I run to be quicker. I'm only familiar with the 3800, so I stick with that- its not like I'm trying to tell people what mods are the best for their 5L mustang, you know? I'm not trying to start anything by this post, just trying to show you why I'm so against this guy ripping on the core 3800 mods that have been that way for 10 years.

If it works, then why fight it then? We make more power with it, and there is no noticeable loss down low, so I don't see the problem.

I don't care what people think of me on here- if you want to believe me- then great, but most all the information I post can be substantially backed up on clubgp, mymonte, 3800pro, etc- so if you are trying to say I have been proven wrong, then you are also challenging all the other fast 3800s out there. I just don't like it when people push too far into a platform that they are unfamiliar with- making false claims, thats all (I have done it myself in the past back on mymonte back when I was a noob).

What I am asking here- is you claim that we shouldn't be buying from the garbage, backyard companies- so please post a link to a place that sells reputable 3800 parts.

Big companies like Edelbrock don't make products for the 3800, so what are we supposed to do? It also pisses me off that you rip on our main 3 3800 vendors- all of whom are setting records with their own parts in various categories, and most of whom have customers reproducing those times with the same parts.

If you don't like our only options for going fast, then make your own parts, or try and talk Edelbrock into making parts for our cars- its not going to happen.

A company doesn't have to be huge in order to make quality parts- one example is PRJ and his fuel rails. The guy has a tiny shop in Indiana, and sells literally like 6 parts on his website. However, his fuel rail setups are considered by many to be the best and highest quality available for the 3800. Are you saying people shouldn't buy from him because he isn't a major vendor?

All 3 of the major vendors have expanded into other markets- mostly into the cobalt market, but I don't see the 3800 market going away. Look at DSM's- they're old as dirt, and there are still many selling for cheap, and many people making them fast. I don't think the wbody market will be the same way- but I bet there will be a good market for the cheap, basic bolt ons for awhile to come still.

I just think that you are completely wrong in saying that the companies that have helped push us from 14s into the 10s, and now the 8s- are not good vendors to buy from simply because they focus on our market.

 

Since this thread is already super long as it is, I posted my helpful advice stuff in a fresh thread, so people didn't have to wade through 8 pages of stuff to find it:

https://montecarloforum.com/m_106140/tm.htm

 

[sm=smiley32.gif] For effort!

Man and I was told my sentence structure etc was bad.
Here is a simple one post summary.

NA
Headers
2.5 Downpipe
Resonator removal if you have the large canister ones,I will add
Less restrictive filter and if looks is a plus, FWI or Plexiglas top CAI kit
Rockers- Not a simple bolt on. Never run stock springs over 1.7:1
Cam- Pain in the neck change, be prepared.
Tuning, but remember you will have to run premium only and its really a heavy cost versus regular for just a few ponies at best. But some do offer shift changes, pressure changes which are a no h.p. plus, but can knock off .3 tenths.
Shift kits
NOS
And you will be still slow and us forced induction guys will eat your POS up. Sorry, but that was implied many a time.

Forced air stock.
More boost
Even more boost
Godly boost
Heads and add the above with the only change being a 3 inch down which should be coupled with a 3 inch back.
And if you need even more, well you probably wouldn't be looking at these forums because your knowledge should would dictate you don't need help.

Again NA according to between the lines reading is always going to be slow and a POS.

Then we will add, if you really need to be faster and you have enough money to cover the above NA deal, really you should be thinking of swapping out the motor, which by no means is a easy deal, but in the long run you can say EAT ME 3800 boosted guys.

Or you can do what you should really be doing.
Maybe a few simple mods from the NA list.
You liked the car for whatever reason.
Enjoy and just drive it with those few mods or none at all.
The muscle car guys and V-8's, hell even real tuners will do you the favor at the lights and track to shut up the likes of Bumpin, while you enjoy your car even if others think its slow.

 

I absolutely love the bang for the buck of rockers- particularly modded stock. I do disagree on them not being a simple bolt on- its maybe a 3 hour job, give or take. The front VC is cake to get off- its the back one thats a pain. Just make sure you buy both coolant elbows because you will break them because they're plastic. I tried to save them on my gp, and it just doesn't work.

Also, I disagree with stopping at 1.7:1, that won't hardly produce any gain at all- especially considering that most of the newer (99 or 00+ I think) are called 1.66:1 stock. If you went with brand new, aftermarket 1.7s, you'd probably gain a little more due to less deflection.

IMO, if you're NA- do the ER rockers. They've been proven to make the most power on NA setups (they're split ratio for I/E). If you're SC, do the 1.9 modded stock. As long as you keep your shift points under 6k (and don't have some ungodly high mileage)- you won't see valve float. Not to mention, 1.9 modded stock rockers usually only run $200-250 shipped used, and all you need are new VC gaskets and both coolant elbows.

Unfortunately thats not so easy on the L67. If you take a stock engine, and add more boost with a smaller pulley- you end up with more knock, and more know.

It should read more like this:

scan for knock
supporting mods
scan for knock
more boost
scan for knock

repeat


oh yeah, the big muscle car V8s are so scary... lol
Most of the older ones, including your 87 monte only ran what- 15s in the 1/4? Obviously thats excluding crazy stuff like the ZL1 camaro, LS6 chevelle, and so on- but most of the old school muscle wasn't really all that fast stock either...

why keep ripping on me man? I think you'd be amazed to see what we've achieved with the 3800.


Plus, you missed the bolded question in my last post again- if we shouldn't be buying parts from backyard shops like zzp, intense, wbody store, etc- post a LINK to the shop us 3800 guys should be getting all of our parts from.

 

Well Bumpin,
I came here in search of information and parts availability for 3800 Monte Carlos, because this site should be full of it.
During my searches, with really no intention of joining really since I am all ready involved with more than enough forums I keep reading all this crap thats been proven time and time again to be not whats posted here. Any person that has been involved with cars, racing and all associations of it knows that the basics, well are the basics, the theories of also are pretty well set in cement and until something radically new comes along, it can't be changed, but yet I see it challenged with total disregard of what would if if done right.

You have the attitude of a punk tuner and you have more than well implied and insulted every none forced air inducted person on this forum along with the above.
There are Tuners who've I've seen that are pretty impressive with the things they come up with and yet they won't fight the basics and knowns like you do.

Just a simple examples of how you read and react is just above in your last post, whi h more than well shows a complete lack of comprehension on something so simple it explains just about everything else. I stated, never run stock springs over 1.7:1, there are many a good reason why not, but it was just a simple reminder. You then, what wait a minute blah, blah, blah and 1.9's are even better. Were the hell did I say anything that implied, directly meant running over 1.7:1 were a bad thing?

Well, lets see for parts.
Hell Summit carries many of them and some they don't
Jegs also
There are very few parts that the W type body stores carry that some of these type places don't. Some are for people to go further than would normally be allowed, but thats only 1/3rd of the products listed. The other 2/3rds are split between junk and trickers.
GM carries a ****load also through many a place from dealers near your house to places like GM Parts Direct.
You seem peeved when I state there nothing more than backyarders.
Well I could have a shed out back that I cut pipes, weld them etc with just a home computer and a web site. No store you can actually go see product in and alot of stuff is dropped shipped from other suppliers. If this isn't a backyard operation, then you redefine it properlly.

Look at me now as your Anti-Christ, because everything has 2 sides and it looks via the PM's I've gotten from other users, admins, mods etc, they gave up and just allow it to float. And myself, well I really hate it when people get other people to spend bad money with no subtanciated backup. And posts like yours are not backup, because they also show nothing else was tried that goes with basic's and theories and just used the crap offered, which really wasn't meant for them.

 

I apologize if I did insult any of the non boosted guys- but I'm honestly confused how I offended them? I made a whole section for the L36 (NA 3800) on my mod thread. I didn't include any of the other NA V6's on here, because I don't know enough about them- and haven't modded them hardly at all (I never got past the most basic bolt ons with my 3100 before I swapped it).

You didn't, and sorry that I incorrectly worded my response. What I mean is that you aren't going to find anyone on here doing a 1.7:1 rocker. The large majority of rocker sales seem to come from modded stock 1.9s, and since they are far cheaper than full aftermarket 1.7s with more gain- those are the ones we should be talking about. And for modded stock 1.9:1 rockers the stock springs are just fine at stock shift points up to ~6k.

Honestly- you should try and do some research first- those companies do not support us hardly at all in the aftermarket.

Ok, so Jegs/Summit is where we should all be buying parts from right? I went on Jegs just to see exactly what they had for the 3800- and this isALL I came up with:

-ARP hex nuts (I'm assuming for head studs which aren't listed?)
-SLP supercharger pulley (of unknown size- I think its a 3.4"?) w/ puller
-Casper's TPS tricker (which you admit is garbage too)
-SLP high flow cat
-SLP headers (probably the only good mod they carry)
-Meziere electric water pump (kinda overkill for most on here)
-A couple of comp cam Xtreme Energy cams (with no specs at all- I dunno anyone who even runs these unless they're sold under a different name)
-Meziere billet flexplate (which is unnecessary for most on here)
-Comp cam's valve springs (unknown rating)
-Caspers Voltage Booster

Here is what Summit has to add:
-Vortech press on supercharger pulley 3.120" (anodized blue, and keyed for the magnuson snout?)
-Caspers valve cover breather (which is useless for those w/ pcv)
-and a comp cam w/ specs but no name.

Without getting into universal mods like air filters and such that fit any engine- those are the only 3800 specific parts. You can't possibly expect people to mod thier cars based solely off that can you? The headers are great- and the pulley is ok, but that would make for one crappy mod list if that was all the mods you had wouldn't it?

Where are the ported heads- where are the intercoolers, how about some way to tune the pcm? Not to mention, for the L67 guys- you have to go from a 3.4" to a 3.1"? Thats a big step... Also- are those cams designed for NA, SC, turbo, nitrous? It doesn't say anywhere...

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/perfPackages.cfm
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/

Please, find me any performance parts for any of our V6's on either site, because I sure can't find anything- I mean not a single thing upgrade.

Now, I do know that GMRacing has some parts for our transmission: including a $1500 differential, a hardcore drive chain set (which many people do buy), and axles to mate the output of the 4t65 to Porsche 944 axles. However, these mods are really only made for all out drag cars- these aren't normal upgrades for people.


The point I'm trying to make here is that these companies offer virtually no support for us to upgrade. If we stuck to only the parts offered through these major corporations, then we'd all still be stuck in the 13s and 14s.

You don't understand what our major vendors do. ZZP, intense, and WBS are all real shops- you can really go to them and see the product. All 3 have 1 or more sponsored race cars that run their parts with great resultsand all 3 have contributed new and innovative parts to the community.

I guess its just hard to understand without actually trying to do the modding yourself. When you've got a 3800, 3100, whatever- and you open your major chain catalogs (like Summit, Jegs, etc)- and you find only 2 or 3 parts that actually fit your vehicle- then what other choice do you have but to go to the companies that specialize in the specific engine you have?

No backup? Dyno #s, track times, scans, and the assurance of hundreds of others who have done the same mods- those don't count as backup? For example, if you don't think a mod I mentioned has any use- go over to clubgp and do some searching, and you'll find all the proof you need. I'm not going to go fish through the search for hours to prove each individual mod works- if people question me enough- then they can do it for themselves; in fact, I encourage it!

If the mods/admins wanted to lock this thread, they could've pages ago- or they could've come in and told us to stop and to get the thread back on track- or heck, they could've just straight bannedus bothaltogether- but there is nothing wrong with a friendly argument, especially if there are some people on both sides. Its not like either of us is threatening each other in any way, or anything bad will come out of the situation.


Honestly though man- this isn't meant as a dig on you directly, just to your way of thinking in general:

If we all thought like you, and didn't branch out from the major manufacturers who don't care about us and don't make products for us, then we would all be sitting here with 14+ second cars with practically no mods. We wouldn't have 2 cars in the 8s, 6 cars in the 10s, and more cars than you could count putting down 500 whp+. None of the major manufacturers ever thought we had a market worth supporting- and none had any idea of the potential of these 3500 lb+ FWD cars with our outdated V6's that only put out 160-240 horsepower at the crank.

It is because of these small, specialized companies- that we are where we are today- and also that we have the giant array of mods that we do have available to us.

You mod your 3800 as you want and limit yourself to the mini-list above; but don't be suprised when you get beat in overall potential and in cost effectiveness- there are sometimes benefits to running with the 'little guy'.

 

Those upgrades to boost are GM part and GM parts sources carry them.
Downpipes without U bend can be gotten via Magnaflow for less than ZZ ones.
And see how I can type anything I want and you can also.

Support via posting is to me useless.
Back a few years ago I took down Mach Performance.
That company along with over 100 posters in support of it had 4300 trucks hitting high 11's and 12's all day everyday with the same exact support of times, slips video's etc.
I knew that much boost on a 4300 was IMPOSSIBLE without one very major little part.
Well it took 2 years but it finally cleared the air as each gave up the truth.
It now is no longer.

 

whats a hypertech programmer? and is that the same as a performance chip? id like either to give me more gains to blow out my boys camaro and mustang

 

A Hypertech Power Programmer III is a very simple to use programmer. It allows you to raise or lower your RPM rev limiter using 100 RPM increments, adjust tire sizes so your speedometer is correct... eg if you go from 16's to 18's. Change your top speed governor from 116MPH or whatever to 255 MPH (which the Monte can't do but it basically removes it) or you can slow it down to 110 MPH. It allows you to adjust shifting patterns so you can stay in the higher RPM band if you wish, sets the transmission pressure 25 to 100 percent. And it finally works as an OBD2 scanner which lets you read and clear check engine codes.

 

A performance "chip" on these engines is where they send you a new pcm (usually with a core charge so you send yours back)- that has a modified tune on it.

The hypertech programmer is as ^^^ mentioned. I prefer a full tuner program if you can afford it (like PT/HPT)- these programmers are usually pretty hardcore simplified, but at least it still helps you rough in your tune.

Do you have a part # for the "upgrades to boost"? I've not heard of anyone ever able to order a smaller supercharger pulley through GM.

I think you're missing the point. The point is that you can't get any major 3800 mods if you actually wanted to go fast. If you just stick with that crap above, you'd be lucky to shave .5 to 1 full second with all of it- what are you supposed to do then? Thats the point I was trying to make.

Then why did you come to a website looking for 3800 parts if its so useless? Its not like all these people make up their times and fake their videos- swing by one of the big GP track meets if you're ever in the midwest if you don't believe it unless you see it in person.