6th Gen ('00-'05): Tuning Help
#31
Waste of money IMO. Bumping octane that much probably takes half a bottle. So you're adding $10-15 to every fill up. Over the course of the life of the car, thatll add up to thousands. The OP is way better off putting that into legitimate mods rather than a bandaid.
Octane booster is also risky. If you've tuned it for the extra octane and either run out or forget to put it in one time, you risk blowing the engine. I also always wonder about mix consistency with stuff like that.
IMO is more octane is desired, E85 or meth injection is the way to go.
Assuming you're talking a 3800 - why are you running 100 octane on a low compression NA engine designed for 87?
Theres also no reason to be going up to 30 degrees of WOT timing, I've never seen any evidence of power gains anywhere near that high on a 3800.
Octane booster is also risky. If you've tuned it for the extra octane and either run out or forget to put it in one time, you risk blowing the engine. I also always wonder about mix consistency with stuff like that.
IMO is more octane is desired, E85 or meth injection is the way to go.
Assuming you're talking a 3800 - why are you running 100 octane on a low compression NA engine designed for 87?
Theres also no reason to be going up to 30 degrees of WOT timing, I've never seen any evidence of power gains anywhere near that high on a 3800.
#32
#33
But filling up with it a day before you go to the track, and switching tunes would be a good way to go.
That time and money is better spent on real mods IMO.
If you were to go through the hassle on a M90 car, you may as well swing for the fences, max out the octane, and then accompany the 'track tune' with a tiny pulley. At least then the power gain might be worth all the BS, rather than just playing with timing alone.
As far as inconsistency with mixing it, lets say you know you only need 93 octane for the timing you're running. Adding boostane and jumping to say 96 octane would provide a safe cushion.
Last edited by bumpin96monte; 07-17-2020 at 12:52 PM.
#34
I actually looked into that further on the HPTuners forums, and it doesn't seem possible, except for maybe a strictly track car. The problem of course is you can't get a sensor installed that can measure the ethanol content. You could just have two different tunes, but the problem is pump gas has quite a large range of ethanol content, far too big for just one E85 tune, you would have to tune for each tank of gas. I suppose you could get yourself an external sensor and measure the content and then adjust the tune accordingly, that would be the closest you could get to really running E85 on these cars, and far too much hassle for a daily
I do agree that trying to make it work like a real flex fuel car where you just dump in gas or E85 or anything in between and let the car figure it out is too much of a pain for a DD. I've seen some workarounds from people that have done it by either tuning it to E40 and letting the trims handle it or by getting an adjustable pressure regulator and varying the pressure based on the resulting mix from an alcohol gauge. But certainly both would be a major hassle unless it was a seriously powerful daily.
But if you live in an area where 'e85' is readily available and you know you could get away without needing normal gas, it's pretty easy to do.
Depending on your locality, there seem to be two major trends -
1 Places that remain constant year round. Some stations always have E85, some e54, some always fluctuate. If that's the case, you can tune to whatever is consistent and convenient on your drive.
2 Places that vary by season. Most stations run E85 or just below in the summer, then switch to E54 for winter. You could either split the difference in the tune or make a summer and winter tune that you flip between twice a year.
If your local area has all stations that always varies, that certainly gets more tricky, but seems to be more rare.
There is always the meth option if that's all too crazy though. It adds the extra hassle of one extra fuel container to keep topped off, but as it's only used at high load, you dont go through much.
Probably should note - I'm not advocating you need either for your 3.4" setup, just an option to go forward down the mod path at some point.
#35
E85 certainly can be done, I run it on my monte. I think you're referring to true flex fuel capability, which I agree is not easy on the stock pcm.
I do agree that trying to make it work like a real flex fuel car where you just dump in gas or E85 or anything in between and let the car figure it out is too much of a pain for a DD. I've seen some workarounds from people that have done it by either tuning it to E40 and letting the trims handle it or by getting an adjustable pressure regulator and varying the pressure based on the resulting mix from an alcohol gauge. But certainly both would be a major hassle unless it was a seriously powerful daily.
But if you live in an area where 'e85' is readily available and you know you could get away without needing normal gas, it's pretty easy to do.
Depending on your locality, there seem to be two major trends -
1 Places that remain constant year round. Some stations always have E85, some e54, some always fluctuate. If that's the case, you can tune to whatever is consistent and convenient on your drive.
2 Places that vary by season. Most stations run E85 or just below in the summer, then switch to E54 for winter. You could either split the difference in the tune or make a summer and winter tune that you flip between twice a year.
If your local area has all stations that always varies, that certainly gets more tricky, but seems to be more rare.
There is always the meth option if that's all too crazy though. It adds the extra hassle of one extra fuel container to keep topped off, but as it's only used at high load, you dont go through much.
Probably should note - I'm not advocating you need either for your 3.4" setup, just an option to go forward down the mod path at some point.
I do agree that trying to make it work like a real flex fuel car where you just dump in gas or E85 or anything in between and let the car figure it out is too much of a pain for a DD. I've seen some workarounds from people that have done it by either tuning it to E40 and letting the trims handle it or by getting an adjustable pressure regulator and varying the pressure based on the resulting mix from an alcohol gauge. But certainly both would be a major hassle unless it was a seriously powerful daily.
But if you live in an area where 'e85' is readily available and you know you could get away without needing normal gas, it's pretty easy to do.
Depending on your locality, there seem to be two major trends -
1 Places that remain constant year round. Some stations always have E85, some e54, some always fluctuate. If that's the case, you can tune to whatever is consistent and convenient on your drive.
2 Places that vary by season. Most stations run E85 or just below in the summer, then switch to E54 for winter. You could either split the difference in the tune or make a summer and winter tune that you flip between twice a year.
If your local area has all stations that always varies, that certainly gets more tricky, but seems to be more rare.
There is always the meth option if that's all too crazy though. It adds the extra hassle of one extra fuel container to keep topped off, but as it's only used at high load, you dont go through much.
Probably should note - I'm not advocating you need either for your 3.4" setup, just an option to go forward down the mod path at some point.
Heck, I have one extra pod open on my pillar, if someone makes an ethanol mixture gauge I could just run a sensor to the tank and monitor it in the car and when I notice the pumps switching to E54 I can flash that tune. I do currently have easy access to E85 living in the midwest, although I am about done with college and who knows where I will be going after so thats something for me to consider. I'd still really like to get my timing up higher without meth injection or E85 though.
Edit: Just found this gauge https://www.maperformance.com/collec...fuel-temp-3904 which would totally let me run E85, assuming I don't have to be changing my tune for every fill up (as in, find a station that is pretty constant with its mixture). I'd have to be the brains and the flex fuel part of the car for it, but I have no problems flashing a winter or summer tune as stations change ethanol content.
Last edited by Keudn; 07-16-2020 at 06:51 PM.
#36
But I'd definitely disagree that theres too much variability for a daily. Lots of 3800 cars have done it for years - even in areas that vary all over the place. The huge gains and similar to gas pricing make it very attractive, so people are willing to deal with a little BS to make it work.
Do you have any local car forums / FB boards? They could probably give you a lot of insight as to actual local conditions.
Here in PHX we've got a whole FB page just because weve only got maybe 10-15 stations across the whole metro. People are constantly posting results, so it's easy to get a feel for the stations and their consistency.
This area is also an oddball. Used to be all E85 year round. Then they passed a state (law?) that it must be labelled flex fuel with only E54 dispensed (within a certain narrow % range). Some stations strictly comply. Some stations use a loophole to continue to do E85 only, and the rest of the stations are all over the place (as they were before the new rule was passed).
But even when I was back in IN, there were some stations that were always E85 (+/- a few percent of course) all summer until the winter fuel change.
Have you noticed pumps giving a pretty consistent mixture between multiple fillups in the same time of year?
It just sounded to me the day to day change in mixture is large enough where its a big hassle.
I'll say the only scenario that's a giant pain is being able to handle gas - full E85 as it's a super wide range of AFR. If you're always able to get E, but it is all over the allowable range, that's tough, but not impossible to deal with.
Big thing is finding out how your local stations run first.
Heck, I have one extra pod open on my pillar, if someone makes an ethanol mixture gauge I could just run a sensor to the tank and monitor it in the car and when I notice the pumps switching to E54 I can flash that tune.
I am about done with college and who knows where I will be going after so thats something for me to consider.
I'd still really like to get my timing up higher without meth injection or E85 though.
#37
I am going to throw some injector cleaner in the tank as well as do Autolite 103s instead of the 104s I have in there now, gapped at .045". Also, does anyone have experience with ZZPs Phenolic Spacers? Do they do anything or is it a waste of money.
#38
#39
Alright well neither seemed to help, and I also realized I had been doing something wrong in HPTuners. The spark retard table I had been logging was set to average and not max, which explains why I kept seeing mysterious knock in cells coming back after I thought I had subtracted it out. I've ran a tank and a half through with injector cleaner, and put the 103s in gapped to 0.045".
Still got a ton of knock. Old plugs looked fine, to be honest I was kind of hoping one would look like it was getting much hotter than the others that might point to an injector getting bad since these are the injectors from the factory still at 170k miles. Since I fixed my oopsie with the table, I had to pull a bit more timing, specifically from the top right portion I was mentioning earlier, and its to the point its a bit ridiculous and something is clearly not right. Keep in mind I messed with the TCC tables and made it unlock much sooner too.
For anyone not familiar with HPTuners, the blue-ish cells are the ones I subtracted from with the scan data, so they are the ones my most recent scan saw KR in.
Still got a ton of knock. Old plugs looked fine, to be honest I was kind of hoping one would look like it was getting much hotter than the others that might point to an injector getting bad since these are the injectors from the factory still at 170k miles. Since I fixed my oopsie with the table, I had to pull a bit more timing, specifically from the top right portion I was mentioning earlier, and its to the point its a bit ridiculous and something is clearly not right. Keep in mind I messed with the TCC tables and made it unlock much sooner too.
For anyone not familiar with HPTuners, the blue-ish cells are the ones I subtracted from with the scan data, so they are the ones my most recent scan saw KR in.
#40
May be a stupid question as I dont have HPT, but is that the base commanded spark table? I just see a few cells there at near zero (2, 3, 4) which would seem to be alarmingly low.
Also keep in mind once you get the issues figured out that you're going to want to blend in those adjustments. Youd just hate to adjust down one cell due to lots of knock knowing that if conditions caused it to bump one cell left or right that it would be knock city.
Also noticed that rpm is very low - was this from a dig or a roll. Been awhile since I've had a stock converter 3800 car, but I would think converter flash alone would get it out of the 1xxx's at WOT.
Out iof curiosity, have you tried a tank of race gas to make sure this is legitimate knock? If nor, I'd be tempted to put half a tank in, flash the stock timing table, and see if all magically goes away or if it's still knocking like crazy. Just hate to see you chasing your tail on an engine issue when it could be picking up false knock from something.
Also keep in mind once you get the issues figured out that you're going to want to blend in those adjustments. Youd just hate to adjust down one cell due to lots of knock knowing that if conditions caused it to bump one cell left or right that it would be knock city.
Also noticed that rpm is very low - was this from a dig or a roll. Been awhile since I've had a stock converter 3800 car, but I would think converter flash alone would get it out of the 1xxx's at WOT.
Out iof curiosity, have you tried a tank of race gas to make sure this is legitimate knock? If nor, I'd be tempted to put half a tank in, flash the stock timing table, and see if all magically goes away or if it's still knocking like crazy. Just hate to see you chasing your tail on an engine issue when it could be picking up false knock from something.
Last edited by bumpin96monte; 07-24-2020 at 10:17 PM.