I stumbled upon an article about piston oiling on, I believe it was an LS engine, and that got me thinking if there were any 3800 specific oiling mods that the old all out 3800 builds did. I know some guys with SBCs increase the size / straighten the three main oil galleys among other things, but I have no idea about the specifics of the 3800 oiling system.

 

TBH almost no one did anything as most of the fastest setups back at the peak of 3800 racing ran completely stock bottom ends (and bottom ends were plentiful and cheap even with reasonably low mileage). Oiling mods can be a big deal on LS stuff because some are set up to rev much higher and some are used for road racing and such where you've got extremely extended periods at high rpm.

The 3800s never really got big into that as theyre generally out of juice by 6500-7000 and the big power setups are used almost exclusively for drag racing (since no one is road racing wbodys) where time at high rpm is very short. Ive certainly seen 3800s spin bearings furthest from the pump, but the vast majority of the blown 3800 engines back in the day were something else (knock frags a piston, fuel system malfunctions and leans a cylinder out, bad tune change, etc)


A few things to consider if you're thinking about it:
-The oil pump housing often has some nasty casting flash that should be cleaned up. IMO anyone who pulls the front cover should at least look at it as I've seen some where the flash looked very close to becoming loose debris.

-The biggest legitimate oil issue on the s2/s3 3800 is main sizes. It starts off healthy on #1, but is drastically reduced on 2, 3, and 4 especially with cam bearing protrusion into the galley. Redrilling those should be at the top of the list of any serious oiling mods.

-Oil windage can be improved also. Ive seen people delete the balance shaft and tap the two valley drain back holes for vent towers to force oil to return down the front cover vs draining all over the ends of the cam / crank. Ive also seen scrapers built for cylinder 4 specifically.

-Oil restricted pushrods are also available to limit top end oil flow.

-The suction side of the pump could be addressed in hardcore setups as its got some hard 90s in the block and the pickup tube is fairly small. It can be re-plumbed externally with a good bit of work.

-Not sure if theres anything you can do about the pump without swapping to an external unit. Ive never seen anyone modify a pump cover for a different size pump.


Two suggestions to search for more info:
-Try to look into sand rails and grass roots racing folks that use the 3800. They likely aren't turning any higher rpm, but they are definitely at WOT far longer, often with turning involved. Those are going to be the people that really care about fixing 3800 oiling issues.
-Do some searching for a username Turbocharged400sbc on the various wbody forums (via Google). He's done more oiling mods to a 3800 than Ive seen ANYONE do on these FWD platforms. He's always got lots of detailed tech info in his posts and usually has some pics as well.

 

-I did see mention of the casting flashes and the oil pump feeding restrictions you mentioned in this thread over on the 3800pro forum. Turbocharged400sbc is the author of that thread, and Radrace19/Greg chimes in as well, who is the same guy who helped me set up my tune file for Holley EFI. I met him over on the Holley forum.

-This video isn't specific to 3800s, but it's the same or similar info in regards to the balance shaft, windage control, and oil drain back.

-This video also isn't 3800 specific, but I believe the second half of the video is what you're referring to by drilling out the mains.

-I first saw mention of oil restricted pushrods over on Intense Racing's site, when I was building the parts list for my cam and valvetrain. Intense claims it's to help prevent lifter failure at high rpm.

-Could you elaborate on the cylinder 4 specific oil scraper?

 

I'm sure it causes some restriction, I was as much concerned on mine with it literally coming off it was so loose and flaky in spots. Granted mine is a 98 short block so maybe they got better through the years?

Yep, the spot he's sticking the drill bit down into the hole in the main bearing seat is exactly what I mean. You do have to be a bit careful on the 3800 as if you just try to open it full size straight through, you'll chew right throguh the side of the cam bearing (or if you have the cam bearings out, you'll just end up back where you started once you reinstall them and they fill part of the opening back up). You've got to open it to the side around the cam bearing being careful not to go nuts and cause weakness in the block.

But IMO the main passages are the #1 problem i can think of as it necks down so much (which of course varies engine to engine as the tooling shifts) and is obviously a critical lubrication point.

I don't recall where I saw it, but they literally welded tabs of sheet metal to the side of the oil pan to help 'scrape' (not literally of course, theres a small gap there) oil off the crank. Heck depending how crazy you wanted to get, you could sub out the stock gasket for a traditional perimeter one and make a legitimate full on crank scraper.


I do wonder though, whats the intended goal of all of this? If you're seriously considering road racing the car, I'd be really thinking about dry sumping it as well. You've got a welder, so fabbing up a new oil pan and pump brackets will be no big deal. You'd just need to find a way to drive the pump(s).

 

I'm not thinking about road racing, just drag strip. But the better I oil the engine, the longer it should last unless I royally screw something else up. I think oiling stuff like this is probably overlooked a ton with modified engines by guys like me who just build in their garage.

In the second video with the SBC, first he drills out the main oil galleys with some really long drill bits. Is that something that could be done on the 3800? Or are the galleys not accessible from the front of the engine like on that SBC?

I googled oil scrapers when you mentioned it, cause that's also new to me, and it does seem like a good idea to do a full crank oil scraper, something like this. Which seems like it would be super easy to make. You'd just need to drop the pan and turn the engine over a few times while taking some measurements.


I did look briefly into a dry sump oil system, but I decided against it. Instead I'm gonna go with an oil accumulator/accusump system. It seems a lot simpler to implement. If the car ever looses oil pressure for for a short period of time, the accumulator system should do the job I need it to do. Since I wont be road racing, or seeing extremely high g-forces on a drag strip launch, the accumulator should be plenty of safety, as well as maybe adding a few baffles/trap doors to the oil pan.

 

IMO its not overlooked really, its just not been a big failure point as plenty of people have went silly fast on SBEs in the 1/4 mile. It would be different if people were spinning bearings left and right, but TBH the main people that do seem to are those that 'built' their bottom end thinking they were helping.

The one thing to keep in mind is more modified generally = less reliable and more prone to failure. The more stuff gets screwed with by a non pro (no offense, I include myself in that same category), the higher chance it'll fail.

Not saying there isnt room for improvement in the oil system, just that I'd do as little modification as you have to to hit your goals. Modifying more than is necessary just invites more problems.

Yep, you can take the crank out and cam bearings out and drill / port as needed down into the oil feed in that crank bearing support. Keep in mind the majority of the neck down is at the cam bearing area.

Just keep in mind wall thickness and how much meat youve got around it as you're removing material from the heart of the block. Theres no reason to go nuts on diameter, youre just trying to fix the neck down spot with a cam bearing installed.

You do realize a dry sump and oil accumulator are two totally different things right?

I only suggested the dry sump as you seem intent on going nuts with oiling mods, and that is really the ultimate race car oiling system mod. Sure it's way overkill for what you're trying to do, but so is most of the rest of this stuff.

TBH I'm not sure I'd bother with an accumulator. Ive never seen a SBE 3800 (properly filled or slightly overfilled) momentarily lose oil pressure, especially with the pump on the crank and all self contained like it is. I just can't think of a scenario where its possible to lose all oil pressure in a 3800 that isn't the result of a catastrophic failure otherwise.

The only 3800 cars ive seen lose oil pressure where something like this could help are from people adding aftermarket external garbage- coolers, mechanical gauges, remote filters, etc stuff that has lines that can break, leak, or pop off and dump oil everywhere. Its easier just to not run all that crap to avoid the risk of it failing, especially on a drag car. If something like that happened at the strip, I'd be more concerned with not stuffing the car into the wall from the back tires being soaked in oil rather than keeping the engine alive.

 

A wet sump is at its basics, a bucket of oil (the pan), which the pump picks up oil from with a pickup tube. The primary reason an engine would loose oil pressure, would be the oil sloshing around in the pan, and moving away from the pickup tube, like during hard cornering, or hard drag strip launch. Which is why aftermarket wet sump pans have baffles and trap doors, to keep oil at the pickup.

A dry sump is a very shallow pan with slots in the side where an external pump, usually driven off the crank, sucks oil and air out of the engine and stores it in a tank. The same pump also sucks the oil from the tank and pumps it into the engine. A dry sump system usually creates vacuum in the crank case as well.

An accumulator system is an addition to a wet sump which stores extra oil. The accumulator has a piston that separates the oil on one side, and pressurized air on the other. The purpose of the pressurized air is to make sure all the oil is force out of the accumulator when oil psi is lost, and determines how fast oil is pushed out. When oil pressure drops, the excess oil is pushed out of the accumulator and used to save the engine, which has hopefully restored its oil supply to the pickup tube. The oil is kept in the accumulator by a manual valve, or solenoid when the engine is shut down. Which adds an extra benefit to an accumulator setup. Being it can be used to prelube the engine before startup.

When I was looking at the later two systems, I weighed the cost of the system, and if I would even be able to run it. I decided I wouldn't be able to run a dry sump system. The two big factors in that decision were cost. The cost of designing a dry sump pan and custom mounting system for the external pump. The cost of the pump, the tank, the -AN lines, etc. I would also need to find out how to remove and bypass the stock pump, which would've likely required a custom front cover. The second factor was space. I didn't really feel like I had the space in the engine bay to mount all of this stuff. I currently still have power steering and an AC compressor on either side of the crank. Plus nowhere to mount the big oil tank. Later on down the line I may delete the power steering and AC, as well as build a tube front end. We'll just have to see how far my ambition takes me.

I wouldn't really say I want to go nuts with oiling mods, just looking at my options, and trying to keep the engine alive as long as possible.

I will agree with you that adding complexity to the oiling system adds however many extra points of failure. But that also happens with adding a turbocharger and dry sump oil system. You could grenade a turbos bearing and send metal into your oil. Or your dry sump could kick its belt and loose all oil pressure. You've got to weigh the benefits against the risks with all mods done.

 

I understand the difference between wet and dry sump. I just found it odd that you said you looked at dry sump, but decided on an accumulator instead as theyre two different things for different purposes.


My point about a SBE 3800 not losing oil pressure is just that Ive never seen a single person have this issue (oil pressure dropping to zero) on a 3800 in decades of drag racing and autocross. Perhaps there's a chance it could happen on a road course with a combo of high rpm + a long sweeper, but it doesn't sound like you're making a road course car. IMO wanting to add an accumulator just sounds like trying to find a problem just to apply a solution.

Aftermarket for other engines perhaps. Ive never seen one for a transverse mounted 3800.

Maybe nuts is a bad way to stay it, but you're talking about taking a drill bit to the mains, lol. Its at the far far end of hardcore mods and something only a handful of people have ever messed with on the 3800. I totally get it if people were blowing bottom ends left and right, but people have gone so quick on SBEs without an issue that it seems odd to want to do something so extreme to fix a problem that doesn't exist in drag racing.

I really hope I'm wrong, but I'd just hate for you to put all this crazy time into making a 'bullet proof' engine only to have a stupid mishap destroy it with obscenely low miles.

I've just seen so many folks try to do forged pistons and other 'built' bottom end mods, only to have it spin a bearing and launch a rod before the first oil change because it wasn't machined right. Or have some silly fuel issue pop up and shatter a piston, etc etc.

Thats why the SBEs have such a good reputation - they've been pushed so far in drag racing and are cheap and easy to replace when the random 'oops' pops up in another system that destroys everything.

My point was more that if you don't add a bunch of excess external junk, theres really no way for a SBE to lose all oil pressure in drag racing.

I get turbo lines, but IMO they're different for 2 reasons:
-There isnt much of a choice for someone who wants to make real power on a 3800. The m90 is very limiting, aftermarket blowers are a pain, and oil less turbos are very limited.
-The line diameter is very small. The full flow add on stuff people often do (coolers, external oil filters, etc) the pump will empty the sump in just a few seconds. Doesnt leave much time to react and shut it down. The tiny oil feed line would take much longer to drain the sump and would likely be hosing down the engine in the meantime blowing smoke all over as an obvious warning sign.

 

They are two different things, but they serve the same purpose. Preventing the engine from going without oil.

The issue wouldn't necessarily be the psi dropping to zero and immediately grenading the engine. More like the engine not seeing proper oil psi over however many times in its life, prematurely wearing the bearings. But I will give it to you that a transverse pan likely wouldn't have as much of an issue with oil sloshing over a standard V8 pan mounted in the traditional orientation.


SBEs may have been pushed to their relative extremes back in the heyday of the ZZP and Intense Racing cars competing and not had oiling issues. But you have to compare the mileage on the blocks available today. As well as keep in mind my goals/dream for the car. I know I touched on the dual engine AWD in other threads, but I don't know that I ever stated my ET goal. With the AWD setup, and all the other things I have planned, my goal with the car is eventually 7 seconds. This is all years down the line, but I also have a big dream of pushing the car into the 6s if I can. So to bring it back to the topic of oiling, I will likely be launching much harder than other 3800 cars because of driving the rear tires as well. Like you said, trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Well oiling mods may not have been necessary for the FWD cars, but it certainly could be for my application.

 

INTENSE™ 3800 Oil Pressure Kit
And the 3800 powered police impala had an engine oil cooler so might try fitting that as well.