New Coil Packs ??
#11
10-24-2012, 12:49 PM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southeast PA
Posts: 25,136
I'm answering questions as they come. I'm not in your for-sale thread crapping on the coil packs.
He asked IF THEY ARE WORTH IT, and I answered NO. Just because you are selling a set doesn't mean I'm keeping a sale from you.
I extensively research everything about these cars because I'm committed to them. If they had benefits, they would be on my car.
I don't have over 18,000 posts because I just make stuff up. I research, ask questions, read about these cars and modifications in my spare time.
You then asked me a question, and I answered it.
And now we are here. Do you still want to call me a problem?
He asked IF THEY ARE WORTH IT, and I answered NO. Just because you are selling a set doesn't mean I'm keeping a sale from you.
I extensively research everything about these cars because I'm committed to them. If they had benefits, they would be on my car.
I don't have over 18,000 posts because I just make stuff up. I research, ask questions, read about these cars and modifications in my spare time.
You then asked me a question, and I answered it.
And now we are here. Do you still want to call me a problem?
#12
10-24-2012, 12:50 PM
The bottom line to my side of the argument is that these coil packs have not let me down yet. I got them cheap, installed them, ALWAYS watching for misfires, and I've witnessed none. All you have for proof is to take my word for it. I do value my current engine, so if there was any chance of misfires, I would have swapped them out to OEM asap.
For the price, these do nothing for performance. Great example of form over function for these. So no, I would not recommend them for long term. If you are one that buys something just to say you've had it, or just because of the brand, go for it. Totally a waste of money to pay anything more than the price of stock packs IMO.
Do you not at all get where I'm coming from? I just don't appreciate people calling them BAD, when they've never actually used them. That is all.
To answer your question, yes I will continue to say your initial response was a problem. I value your input greatly and do also respect your dedication to the forum and to the 3800 platform. Instead of saying the coil packs or terrible, why not simply ask the OP to do a little research, maybe post some links to the horror stories people have had with MSDs, I know they're out there as I've seen many myself. I just do not appreciate someone discriminating a product they've never used first-hand. Sorry if I offended anyone, I don't care if it's a Mod such as Mike or someone with 3 posts, I will never have a great appreciation for anyone making claims of something they don't have actual experience with.
For the price, these do nothing for performance. Great example of form over function for these. So no, I would not recommend them for long term. If you are one that buys something just to say you've had it, or just because of the brand, go for it. Totally a waste of money to pay anything more than the price of stock packs IMO.
Do you not at all get where I'm coming from? I just don't appreciate people calling them BAD, when they've never actually used them. That is all.
To answer your question, yes I will continue to say your initial response was a problem. I value your input greatly and do also respect your dedication to the forum and to the 3800 platform. Instead of saying the coil packs or terrible, why not simply ask the OP to do a little research, maybe post some links to the horror stories people have had with MSDs, I know they're out there as I've seen many myself. I just do not appreciate someone discriminating a product they've never used first-hand. Sorry if I offended anyone, I don't care if it's a Mod such as Mike or someone with 3 posts, I will never have a great appreciation for anyone making claims of something they don't have actual experience with.
Last edited by 01 Monte SS; 10-24-2012 at 12:59 PM.
#13
10-24-2012, 12:59 PM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southeast PA
Posts: 25,136
Did I say they would BREAK the engine? No... no I didn't. Being bad = not being good. Does not mean breaking something.
#14
10-24-2012, 01:01 PM
Please remind me of where I accused you of saying they would BREAK the engine? Oh wait, I never did.
#16
10-24-2012, 01:23 PM
Quoted from ZZP:
Source:
Mods You Don't Need | ZZP News
Save $50-80 and just paint the stock coils and you'll be better off
Aftermarket coil packs
The stock ignition on a Grand Prix is very good. It is so good that we run stock coil packs on all of our cars at ZZP. Failure rate of stock coil packs is low and the spark output is extremely high. We have A/B dyno tested aftermarket coil packs and seen no difference in HP. We have seen many aftermarket units fail and when customers have a problem it’s very hard to diagnose with extra unneeded mods on the car.
The ignition control module sits under the coil packs. It sends a limited current to the coils for a predetermined pulse (dwell). You cannot change the wires or the coils to get ‘more spark’ because the ignition control module will not send more power to the coils. You would have to change the ignition control module for a significant increase. The MSD coils and/or the MSD wires are a downgrade in your ignition system in regards to the 3800. The best you can do is run a wire with slightly less resistance or more insulation. These are very small improvements but the only meaningful ones.
Aftermarket Plug wires
Unless you have a problem with your stock wires, you don’t need to buy aftermarket ones. In our experience of working on GPs the failure rate of most aftermarket wires is 10 times that of stock wires. GM puts everything they have into making cars get the best mileage they can with the least amount of problems. A poor ignition system would increase emissions, which GM couldn’t afford. This means plug wires from the factory are designed for high spark, low radio noise and excellent performance. If you’re set on upgrading them forget about MSD and Jacobs.
The regulator controls the power of the factory ignition module in the 3800. The MSD wires have almost no resistance which puts a large demand on the coils to produce a lot of current (Ohm’s Law). Since the ignition control module limits the current to the coils, you end up with a poorly performing system. This is probably why we gained a consistant 4 HP going from MSD to our new ZZP wires and why MSDs have performed poorly in our high HP builds.
The stock ignition on a Grand Prix is very good. It is so good that we run stock coil packs on all of our cars at ZZP. Failure rate of stock coil packs is low and the spark output is extremely high. We have A/B dyno tested aftermarket coil packs and seen no difference in HP. We have seen many aftermarket units fail and when customers have a problem it’s very hard to diagnose with extra unneeded mods on the car.
The ignition control module sits under the coil packs. It sends a limited current to the coils for a predetermined pulse (dwell). You cannot change the wires or the coils to get ‘more spark’ because the ignition control module will not send more power to the coils. You would have to change the ignition control module for a significant increase. The MSD coils and/or the MSD wires are a downgrade in your ignition system in regards to the 3800. The best you can do is run a wire with slightly less resistance or more insulation. These are very small improvements but the only meaningful ones.
Aftermarket Plug wires
Unless you have a problem with your stock wires, you don’t need to buy aftermarket ones. In our experience of working on GPs the failure rate of most aftermarket wires is 10 times that of stock wires. GM puts everything they have into making cars get the best mileage they can with the least amount of problems. A poor ignition system would increase emissions, which GM couldn’t afford. This means plug wires from the factory are designed for high spark, low radio noise and excellent performance. If you’re set on upgrading them forget about MSD and Jacobs.
The regulator controls the power of the factory ignition module in the 3800. The MSD wires have almost no resistance which puts a large demand on the coils to produce a lot of current (Ohm’s Law). Since the ignition control module limits the current to the coils, you end up with a poorly performing system. This is probably why we gained a consistant 4 HP going from MSD to our new ZZP wires and why MSDs have performed poorly in our high HP builds.
Mods You Don't Need | ZZP News
Save $50-80 and just paint the stock coils and you'll be better off
#17
10-24-2012, 01:25 PM
Quoted from ZZP:
Source:
Mods You Don't Need | ZZP News
Save $50-80 and just paint the stock coils and you'll be better off
Source:
Mods You Don't Need | ZZP News
Save $50-80 and just paint the stock coils and you'll be better off
Much better than calling them BAD without ever using them.. Great work Mitch.
#18
10-24-2012, 01:36 PM
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Coast !!
Posts: 4,930
Wow thanks for all the info I am thinking of shooting them white no mater what ones I would get or reuse. I have nothing red under the hood besides the K&n i never found orange oil for that darn thing !!
#19
10-24-2012, 01:49 PM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southeast PA
Posts: 25,136
Wait a second. ZZP says they use stock on their car (so did I). They said they have SEEN instances where aftermarket fail (who else said that?). I mentioned that people dyno testing the car with MSD coil packs often have to change the coil packs, they discuss dyno tests showing no improvement.
Really, I just paraphrase stuff that I have read, just because a source was quoted the information is not different. I try to save a lot of my time, and people's time on the forum.
I provide information that I find to be true. Real Life tested? No. Because it would waste money. I have the K&N system and I think it's trash. I wish I didn't have it and was a member of forums before I bought it.
If someone told me not to get it because it's bad, and they never had it, I would believe them still. If they said "no don't get this, it's proven inefficient in things I've read everywhere".
I try to help people modify their cars to the fullest extent of their budget. I like to steer people away from bad choices that could be a waste of money and explain why I think that.
I don't have a turbo, but I can talk to people about turbos because I probably have done more research than a lot of the people potentially buying the turbo system.
I don't have an L67 engine, but I could tell you how to safely modify it to be fast. Hey, I could even EXPLAIN the procedure to do maintenance on them, without ever doing it myself.
I'm not someone who talks out of their
. I do my research, I find reasons to back up what I say. I don't need to pull out bookmarks and links and quote sources all the time, my reputation does that for me.
This topic is now done, any further rebuttles and arguments can be settled outside this thread. I believe Blazed SS has enough information on his original question regarding the coil packs now lol
Really, I just paraphrase stuff that I have read, just because a source was quoted the information is not different. I try to save a lot of my time, and people's time on the forum.
I provide information that I find to be true. Real Life tested? No. Because it would waste money. I have the K&N system and I think it's trash. I wish I didn't have it and was a member of forums before I bought it.
If someone told me not to get it because it's bad, and they never had it, I would believe them still. If they said "no don't get this, it's proven inefficient in things I've read everywhere".
I try to help people modify their cars to the fullest extent of their budget. I like to steer people away from bad choices that could be a waste of money and explain why I think that.
I don't have a turbo, but I can talk to people about turbos because I probably have done more research than a lot of the people potentially buying the turbo system.
I don't have an L67 engine, but I could tell you how to safely modify it to be fast. Hey, I could even EXPLAIN the procedure to do maintenance on them, without ever doing it myself.
I'm not someone who talks out of their
. I do my research, I find reasons to back up what I say. I don't need to pull out bookmarks and links and quote sources all the time, my reputation does that for me.This topic is now done, any further rebuttles and arguments can be settled outside this thread. I believe Blazed SS has enough information on his original question regarding the coil packs now lol