I finally decided to RMA that set of ZZP plug wires. Put the stock ones back on, and started it up to verify that it was on all cylinders. Then I plugged my scan tool in, and what do ya know, the fuel issue at idle is gone. So that takes care of that little issue. But I have a couple questions about the ignition/electrical system. Is there any actual benifit to running high voltage coil packs and thicker spark plug wires? If there's no benifit on a stock type electrical system, would switching to a 16V race battery and high output alternator be able to more effectively utilize the aforementioned parts? I just recently found out about 16V race batteries, and have been trying to find out as much as I can about them.

 

You dont want to run high voltage coil packs. 47kv is what you want to be at. Exactly what ZZP labels their coil packs as. You can run their thicker plug wires but they wont really improve anything. Also, the electronics in the car are made to run at 12-14ish volt and you dont want to go higher than that, you can fry everything.

 

Unfortunately, that's the exact reason why the standard 3800 advice is not to touch the stock ignition system outside of plugs. Virtually no benefit and a far higher failure rate than stock stuff.

It is kinda funny, ZZP used to have that exact advice on their website in their tech section talking about modding. They used to brag on the forums at how they'd "demod" customer cars to get rid of useless stuff to make more power and more reliably.

As a business I guess I understand why they changed their position ans started selling it. Some people are ideas set on replacing stuff 'since it worked on their SBC 350' or 'since aftermarket is always better', so some people are going to buy the stuff regardless what they say, so they may as well get the profits.

For any 'typical' 3800 build, no. People have made 600++ whp and run 10s on the stock ignition parts (I believe ZZPs all out TTGT drag car even ran stock coil packs and ICM).

Only benefit to an upgraded wire is if you get a better made set for those who change plugs often. That's literally the only reason I run PRJs. But to that point, theres no reason you couldn't just buy 2 sets of stock wires (for less money) and just swap out an individual plug wire when one does break.

If you really are changing plugs that often (say ultra cold coppers every oil change), stock wires aren't that tough to remove. Bad removal technique seems like it's the more likely cause of damaged stock wires.

First about the HO alternator. The alternator needs to be sized to the current draw of the vehicle. What are you drawing right now? What new electronic items do you plan to add / what is their amperage draw?

For example, putting a 250 amp alternator on a car that had a 100 amp alternator and draws 90 amps at peak load doesnt help anything. You cant force the electronics to consume more amps to make them run 'more better', lol. If nothing else, on a stripped down drag car, you're removing stuff to save weight including lights, radio, HVAC, etc. So the most hardcore drag racer would want to go the other way - a lighter alternator that consumes less hp.

HO alternators are for those adding draw beyond what the system can handle - hardcore car audio people for example. If you've got a stock 110 amp alternator and you're adding an audio amp with a 125 amp draw, the stock alternator clearly isnt sufficient to run the car and the amp if run consistently at that level.



In terms of a 16 volt battery, I wouldn't try it as you have no idea how itll impact the electronics (both immediately and in terms of longevity). Ive personally never seen a modern car run one, its always been distributor / coil stuff.

I guess my counterpoint here is really the same as above though. Weve proven that 3800s can make 800? whp and run 8s in the 1/4 on 12 volts. If you're not already pushing the known boundaries of what's proven / available on the platform, is it really worth spending money to try random new stuff that has the potential to turn into a headache?



With all of that said, certainly the stock ignition system isnt perfect and there is better stuff out there for pushing the absoute limit (but again, being 'race car's stuff and being aftermarket, you'll deal with a lot more failures). IMO the ideal situation for someone really trying to push it would be to just scrap the whole thing and run a full aftermarket controller (fuel and spark). That would eliminate the mediocre tuning options we have, give you full control over the tables, let you incorporate legitimate boost / traction control curves, while making a bit more power.

But TBH, no one really gets that far because A) there aren't any transmissions thatll legitimately hold the existing power limits for any reasonable amount of time and B) for the RWD folks that actually have good transmission options, theyve got the LS.

 

I am running ZZP's coil packs.

From what I've read about running on a 16V system, if frying other electrical components is a concern, you can use resistors to step down the voltage. Don't take my word for it though, that's just something I remember from my reading. The main point to running on a 16V system is better performance out of things like the ignition system, starter, electric water pump, radiator fans, fuel pumps, etc. Assuming they're all compatible with 16Vs. I saw this Cleetus Mcfarland video and in it, one of the things he mentioned changing for World Cup was switching to a 16V system. I had no idea prior to that video that 16v car batteries were even a thing, so I started looking into it.

 

I read on an old grand prix forum thread that PRJ used Taylor brand wires. Summit racing still sells Taylor spark plug wires. Any thoughts on them?

 

I understand the reason behind running higher voltage, my point is twofold:
1) Almost none of that stuff you mentioned needs improving from stock outside of legitimate road racing (which no one is doing with a w body anyways). Other than the fuel pump, there have literally been 600 whp 3800s running stock all of the rest of that with no issues.

I'll give it to you that a stock fuel pump wont support big HP, but it isnt going to support it on 16 volts either. Theres just not enough volume there, so you'll have to run a different pump anyways. Size the pump correctly, and theres no need for higher voltage.

2) As goes with most aftermarket stuff, theres always a tradeoff. If everything ran better with no drawbacks, they would've done that from the factory. I'm no EE (only took 3 EE classes in college), but I'd imagine overdriving everything like that will create more heat and also reduce its life. Same reason why something like a BAP only comes on at WOT and doesnt run constant high voltage.

I get they have split batteries with 12/16 terminals so you can run separate circuits for different things, I'm just not seeing a benefit that would be useful given your current mods and the reduced lifespan of the components. If you can make 600++ on all stock ignition stuff, why screw with anything that would increase the failure rate and possibly leave you stranded?



Overall, I guess my big thing is that it doesnt make sense to focus time and money on something that's not the bottleneck/ weak link. If you aren't making near record 3800 power, theres plenty of proven mods you should be buying to get there before experimenting with random stuff. For those making near record power already, theyve got trans and axle issues (if they're actually using it) that they can put effort into.

Hopefully the 4t80 will help solve some of the latter, but it sure doesn't seem to be 100% golden bullet. People have been doing the swaps for at least half a decade, and yet virtually none of them appear to be pushing the limits / records outside of maybe 1 or 2.

 

Yeah, I get where you're coming from. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I mainly like looking at other highly built cars on youtube that are really geared towards drag racing, and seeing what I could possibly use in my own build. Half of the stuff is unnecessary for my application, but I just think they're neat.

 

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised the auto industry hasn't moved to higher voltage in general as there are multiple benefits. I remember back in college in a couple auto engineering classes, the general prediction was a shift to 42 or 48 volts in the 'near future'. Of course they also predicted other stuff that has somewhat fizzled out too, like switching to hydrogen power, etc.

I think the problem is that theres too much inertia with 12 volts to make an easy switch at this point. It would certainly be a lot more jarring than the change from 6 volts due to the global scale of everything.


One other option I thought of though if you're looking to change batteries is to go to a light weight lithium battery. Even better if you can get something with a bit lower reserve capacity for even more weight reduction, and just quit running electronics with the car off. That's an easy way to shave a nice chunk of weight off which will help everything- acceleration, fuel economy, trans life, etc.

 

Race oriented batteries is a new topic for me, so a couple questions. Can the batteries you're talking about still be used with a factory alternator for street driving? ZZP sells a Li-Ion Race Battery, but it in the description it says the battery shouldn't be used during winter. As a year round daily driver, does that rule out these types of batteries for me? I don't use any electronics unless the car is running, so thats not a problem.

 

Yes, its still a 12 volt battery so the normal charging circuit works fine. Only a couple oddball things:
-If getting a lower reserve battery to maximize weight savings, it's more important to make sure you've got enough alternator to meet the needs of current draw if electronics have been added. The battery doesnt have much capacity if you're grossly overdrawing the system.
-Some brands reccomend special trickle chargers as the battery needs are different from standard lead acid.

With that said, I've got no idea what the replacement lifetime on these is using it as a true DD. I know people that use them often, but not a true 'daily driver'. Certainly the EV manufacturers that use lithium have special charging parameters to prolong life.

The primary reason is because they sell a low output bike battery IIRC. Cranking amps at freezing are like half a normal replacement battery (mid 300s?). Getting down to actual winter temps - say 0 and you've got almost no amperage. They're made to start a half liter bike in normal bike riding temps, not a nearly 4 liter V6 in the dead of winter.

That's the thing with going all out race battery - getting the lightest type of battery and then the smallest output possible for max weight savings - it's made for a race car where a dead battery isn't a big deal.

Depends how serious you are about the daily driver thing and how many sacrifices you're ok with making (like say keeping a jumper pack at your desk at work, lol). I've seen people put up with some crazy stuff just to prove it's a 'street car'.

No offense, but if you do half the stuff you're talking about, this is going to be a miserable daily driver. If you're really serious about this, you need to spend a couple grand on a true, stock daily driver. A few reasons:

-The failure rate of aftermarket parts in general is WAY higher than stock stuff. It literally could be designed by some random dude in his shed and sourced from the cheapest bidder in China. Theres zero requirement for engineering capability, manufacturing capabiltiy, etc like there would be for OEM parts. The more aftermarket parts you've got, the higher chance of a part failure taking down the car. That's why I'm generally so against replacing stuff just for the sake of replacing stuff (coil packs, wires, etc) unless there is a solid reason why.

-Modifications in general dont always get along. GM spent a ton of money on systems engineering to make sure the package worked reliably. Throw all kinds of random parts into it and you're going to run into failures of otherwise good parts just because the tolerance stack didnt work out in your favor (as one example). This gets worse the deeper you get with mods and power as you've got more new interactions and you're pushing other stuff way beyond its design limits.

-At the power levels you were shooting for and seem to be pushing for - you're going to need a serious tire to really hook up. Ideally a drag radial, maybe getting away with something a bit more streetable. Problem is these kinds of tires are borderline dangerous in the rain and unusable in the cold (they'll generally crack in extreme cold - freezing temps). To be fair, most people dont drive highly modified toys in the extreme cold anyways as it just isn't fun. Not like there are going to be any races or anything anyways.


I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.