Opinion Needed: Help with 3800 xpz tuning. - Page 2 - Monte Carlo Forum - Monte Carlo Enthusiast Forums


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  #11  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:40 AM
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All on the same dyno
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  #12  
Old 12-08-2016, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 03vaderSS View Post
I wanted to run the 2 bar with the flashed PCM but he said it would be a more expensive tune and take longer to tune.
IE he wants to be lazy. I could see not wanting to mess with it on a completed tune, but the car is far from done. You obviously have changes that need to be made still that will require updating the tune again anyways, so just have him drop in a stock L67 tune, copy over the tables he already changed not related to the fueling, and tune it again with your new parts.

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I emailed Zoomer and he said either the cam is installed wrong or the timing is way off and I should be making 100 hp more
That's certainly a possibility along with a host of other mechanical issues (incorrect length pushrods, valves not sealing, toasted head gasket, etc etc). That's why I mentioned doing a mechanical inspection if it still doesn't make power with the new injectors.

You could also start digging into that stuff before you get the injectors if you're that confident something is mechanically wrong- it certainly has a high probability of being the case.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:31 AM
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If the cam was installed wrong then the car would be back firing but it doesn't. The pushrods are all new and matching
Lengths. The head gaskets are cometic and brand new as well. I can't see him installing the cam wrong and i trust him with his head shop he uses all the time. I can't believe this is happening over a year later and the money I've spent. He's basing it off the injectors and says it's not getting proper fuel. I agree but I can't see it gaining 100'hp 1000 Rpms higher.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:35 AM
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Bump I know it's hard to tell
But csn I email you a video of it idling with the cutout open? It doesn't sound like the cam is installed wrong but maybe you could
Tell
Better then I can? I can't post pics or vids on here with my iPhone it won't work. Also my tuner said that since I have the zzp transmission with the 2500 tq converter that will decrease my power as well. I don't see how that makes sense. He also said that he didn't ask the shop for the flow numbers on the heads since he just had the runners slightly ported and the valves replaced

Last edited by 03vaderSS; 12-08-2016 at 11:55 AM.
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  #15  
Old 12-08-2016, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 03vaderSS View Post
The only other power mods I have added since last time was an exhaust cutout, removed the high flow cat, e85, -8 fuel lines -6 return lines, 2.8 pulley , ported sc inlet, northstar tb kit, a second short stack inter cooler and a 5 gal coolant res. I forgot to
Mention last time I was using an xp hot cam.
So it looks like there are 3 changes that could cause issues:
-throttle body (make sure you're getting 100% wide open throttle, not tps signal but actual tb opening)
-cam install (lots that can go wrong here, including a manufacturing defect in the cam)
-tune

Obviously the fueling isn't an issue since he says AF is fine until you run out of injector. With 24 degrees of timing, your boost level and intercooling is fine.

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I just hot off the phone with my tuner and I mentioned what you were saying and Zoomer from zzp and he sticks by his head shop who has ported heads for 3800s a lot.
If the shop is so good, why would they refuse to give before/after flow numbers? Again, I doubt this is the cause of your way low power unless they really destroyed the heads or screwed the valve seats up. But it's still frustrating.

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Also he claimed the cam is installed correctly which I believe it is as well and the timing was not done wrong because I already had the double roller installed with my xp hot cam.
IMO, that's another red flag. Just because they installed the first cam right with that timing chain doesn't mean they did it right the second time just because they used he same chain. Also, it's not impossible that the cam itself had a defect and was ground wrong.

Sounds like they're just in CYA mode trying to blame anything but their work. It's a tough call to make. Either you can keep trusting them and burning money in the hopes that they've got a handle on it- or you pack up your car and find a different shop.

They're certainly right about the next step with injectors (although they should've known ahead of time that 60s would not be enough on E85), so maybe you stick it out until those are in and see what a full pull looks like.

Quote:
He is saying it will gain power from the bigger injectors but I can't see 100 like Zoomer said missing out on with my build. It's aggravating. I've spent too much with add ons and e85 to make less power. It doesn't make sense even Zoomer said it's hard to make less power even with a lot of error and with my mods especially. I don't know what to do.
The injectors won't make more power, but being able to run it to 6500 or even a little higher certainly will. I'm with you though, picking up 75+ hp in 1000 rpm is going to be tough with a blower like the m90.

As far as comparing the loss in power, about what was your power at on your last good dyno run at say 5000 rpm? That way you're at least comparing apples to apples.

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If the cam was installed wrong, wouldn't the car be undrivable?
Not necessarily. The double roller has multiple slots to advance or retard the cam by a couple degrees each. It's possible they put it in too advanced or retarded. It's also possible to install it a tooth off by accident.

It's only if they installed it way off that it wouldn't run at all.

Last edited by bumpin96monte; 12-08-2016 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:33 PM
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On this set up it was 275 hp and 298 tq at 5200. And how can I tell if there is a defect in the cam from the factory, that means id have to drop the motor and go back to step 1. Im out of money at this point and he won't do the the right thing because he will stick to his guns. I'm screwed

Last edited by 03vaderSS; 12-08-2016 at 12:37 PM.
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  #17  
Old 12-08-2016, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 03vaderSS View Post
Bump I know it's hard to tell
But csn I email you a video of it idling with the cutout open?
Honestly I don't think i would be able to tell much to be of value via a video. Even listening to it in person I wouldn't be very helpful. I'd need to do mechanical investigation and look at scans to be able to tell anything definitively.

Quote:
Also my tuner said that since I have the zzp transmission with the 2500 tq converter that will decrease my power as well. I don't see how that makes sense.
Certainly a looser converter can screw with dyno numbers since you're running it unlocked, but a 2500 really isn't that loose of a converter. Again, it sounds like they're just making excuse after excuse to me.
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  #18  
Old 12-08-2016, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 03vaderSS View Post
On this set up it was 275 hp and 298 tq at 5200.
I meant on your 330 whp dyno run, how much power did you have around 5000? If you were notably lower on this latest run at the same rpm, the just adding injector for more rpm is definitely not going to fix the problem.

What I mean is if you had say 300 whp at 5000 before, and this time you only had 260 at the same 5000, that would help point to there being another problem. You should be up on power across the entire WOT portion of the chart until you ran out of fuel. If you're down across the board, you need to prepare for more work because something is for sure wrong.

Quote:
And how can I tell if there is a defect in the cam from the factory, that means id have to drop the motor and go back to step 1. Im out of money at this point and he won't do the the right thing because he will stick to his guns. I'm screwed
The shop doing the work should be able to inspect the cam. It's certainly a long shot though, which is why zzp was pointing to an install issue since that's far more likely.

As I mentioned before, there's only a handful of big things that changed since your 'good' run. You can verify the throttle is opening 100% yourself, that's easy. Then it'll be down to cam or the tune being the culprit.

For now, there isn't much you can do but wait on the injectors so you can make a full pull.
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Old 12-08-2016, 03:23 PM
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Yea I guess that's all I can do, I'm numb though and the wait is killing me I've given my every dime to this car and this is how it goes. I don't remember or have the dyno sheet from the 93 tune and that build.
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  #20  
Old 12-08-2016, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 03vaderSS View Post
Yea I guess that's all I can do, I'm numb though and the wait is killing me I've given my every dime to this car and this is how it goes.
It's definitely a bad spot. I've seen it happen multiple times at many shops across the country, even on some big money builds. Keep us posted on what happens when the injectors get in! Good luck!
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