Ethanol in fuel...?
#1
01-26-2011, 08:54 PM
Ethanol in fuel...?
Hey everyone,
What are some of your opinions OR knowledge of what Ethanol ( 10% - ? ) will do to any motor ? Are some of you required by state law to use it ? Do you choose to use it ? I have read that over a prolonged period of time and mileage that engine components will wear down faster. Should we be using ethanol in our engines ? What do some of you Mechanics out there think of this ? Have you seen any damaged engines because of ethanol fuel additives ?
I know, a lot of questions in there but I'm just wanting some knowledge on this matter.
Thanks.
What are some of your opinions OR knowledge of what Ethanol ( 10% - ? ) will do to any motor ? Are some of you required by state law to use it ? Do you choose to use it ? I have read that over a prolonged period of time and mileage that engine components will wear down faster. Should we be using ethanol in our engines ? What do some of you Mechanics out there think of this ? Have you seen any damaged engines because of ethanol fuel additives ?
I know, a lot of questions in there but I'm just wanting some knowledge on this matter.
Thanks.
#2
01-26-2011, 11:40 PM
its near impossible to find a station here in michigan that doesnt put 10% into their gasoline mixture and i heard they are going to start mixing 15% ethanol soon... i dont know about adverse side effects or pre-engine wear but i know it effects gas mileage
#3
01-26-2011, 11:53 PM
Here in NJ I believe it is required - something like 10-15% I believe. There is a growing concern in the small engine industry that Ethanol is detroying motors. So much so I've seen a couple of companies popup over the past year or so that focus on selling ethanol free fuel (generally in smaller containers, ie quart) for use in garden tractors, lawn mowers, line trimmers, etc. I doubt car engines are immune, but the larger motors likely are not as effected by Ethanol as the smaller ones are. Even Al Gore came out and backed off his original stance that Ethanol is the way of the future. Clearly it is not, and I believe Ethanol will be dead in five years.
#4
01-27-2011, 12:25 AM
With that being said, there really isn't anything to be worried about by filling up with gasoline that is 10% or 15% ethanol.
Are some of you required by state law to use it ?
I am not aware of any state that makes it mandatory that gasoline must have at least 10% ethanol in it, but the states do encourage it.
Do you choose to use it ?
Where I am in Ohio, and my home in Michigan, there really aren't a lot (if any) gas stations that have a 10% ethanol blend. But if I saw it, I would buy it.
I have read that over a prolonged period of time and mileage that engine components will wear down faster.
There is a possibility of that some components will not last after a period of time, but it depends on the components of the fueling system mostly. What ethanol is is basically alcohol that you can ingest (moonshine), and is made with natural crops (corn, sugar cane, etc). Alcohol is a cleaner, and because of this it might wear out some vulnerable rubber components, but otherwise the engine will be fine and in fact be in better shape because it's running ethanol through it.
Mileage is slightly affected negatively by using ethanol (E10 might make you lose 1-2mpg), however the emissions coming out of the exhaust is reduced significantly.
Should we be using ethanol in our engines ?
I believe we should because of a number of reasons.
1) It's cleaner energy. There are no hydrocarbons in ethanol. Hydrocarbons are one of the main reasons why gasoline is so dirty.
2) This kind of goes along with number 1, but if you take an engine that has been running with gasoline and pull a head off of it, and compare it with an engine that has been running ethanol through it, you will be shocked with the difference. The engine run on gasoline will be dirty with hydrocarbons caked onto everything. Yet, the engine that was run on ethanol will be spotless. Even if you have run an engine on gasoline and then switch to E85 for example, the E85 will literally clean your engine and make it perform better.
3) Ethanol as a fuel is cheaper at the moment. I realize that this is because of government subsidies, but as a consumer this is beneficial. Plus you are taking some money away from foreign oil by using ethanol in fuel.
4) This goes along with number 3. If you run your vehicle on E85 you are basically running a fuel with high octane. Some say E85 is as low as 94-96 octane, or as high as 105 octane. So, even if E85 is the same price or is slightly higher in price then regular unleaded, you should actually be comparing E85 to premium unleaded prices. In this situation, it's cheap.
5) Ethanol increases your octane rating. Now, at 10% or 15% ethanol, you won't see a significant increase in the octane level (and there will be no advertised difference), but with E85 you are basically running cheap race fuel. So if you are into tuning the PCM in these cars, you can turn up the timing because of the E85. The problem with that is if you do tune your PCM to accept E85, you will have to always run on it and that can be a problem because E85 isn't available at every gas station.
What do some of you Mechanics out there think of this ? Have you seen any damaged engines because of ethanol fuel additives ?
This is a myth actually. Engines do not get damaged because of ethanol. There might be a fuel line that wears out prematurely, but otherwise your engine is fine. You see, the problem comes when people have run gasoline through their vehicle and then switch to E85. Suddenly, their engine starts acting up and begins to have problems. So instinctively they blame it on the E85. But what actually happened was that the E85 cleaned up the whole fuel system of all of the old hydrocarbons that were left behind from gasoline. By doing this, hydrocarbons will clog up in the fuel filter or injectors. But, if you clean the injectors after switching to E85, and replace the fuel filter after a few fill ups with E85, your engine will run great!
So to sum it up,
1) Ethanol will make your vehicle lose a little bit of mileage, but the bigger problem is people's right foot.
2) Ethanol is cleaner and reduces emissions, and I have no problem with trying to clean and take care of God's green Earth.
3) Ethanol is basically race fuel. Always a plus there for me
4) Ethanol does not in any way damage engines, but instead cleans them.
Hope that helps!
Last edited by zipper; 01-27-2011 at 12:33 AM.
#5
01-27-2011, 08:51 PM
thanks
Yes, that does help.
Thanks for your input on this issue. I would however like to hear from others out there to get their opinion. I'm not going to stop fueling up
with Shell Gas but I just want to be informed of the myths' and facts about Ethanol use in our vehicles today.
Thanks for your input on this issue. I would however like to hear from others out there to get their opinion. I'm not going to stop fueling up
with Shell Gas but I just want to be informed of the myths' and facts about Ethanol use in our vehicles today.
#6
01-27-2011, 11:03 PM
it harms more "older" vehicles than anything.
If you look at older carbed vehicles with a manual fuel pump, it can dry out the flap (usually made of leather or rubber) and cause it to break down. they actually do make flaps that can withstand ethanol dry-rotting.
the only bad rumor I have heard about it in newer vehicles is that it will cause rust in the piston chambers of an iron engine because of a water mixture.
that being said, I doubt that is true since water doesnt burn and Im sure all of us have had water in our gas at one point or another, and for those of us that havent, try pouring gas into a bowl, then mixing a small amount of water with it and see how well it burns
(DISCLAIMER:: Dont actually do that for you might burn your eyebrows off if you dont proceed with this test proficciently)
basically, if it were indeed to have water qualities, your vehicle would run extremely rough every time you fill the tank up with ethanol rated gas.
I don't, however, agree with the E85 being better for your vehicle than standard gas. There are "flex fuel" cars meant to run on E85 (if the situation calls for it) and the rest arent. I know that most bifuel cars have extra emission controls and such to allow for them to proficiently do so.
In short, ehtanol IMHO isnt bad for your car, also, dont run straight E85. if you do so, I actually run (every once in a very blue moon) 2 gallons race fuel (E85) and fill up with regular or premium.
If you look at older carbed vehicles with a manual fuel pump, it can dry out the flap (usually made of leather or rubber) and cause it to break down. they actually do make flaps that can withstand ethanol dry-rotting.
the only bad rumor I have heard about it in newer vehicles is that it will cause rust in the piston chambers of an iron engine because of a water mixture.
that being said, I doubt that is true since water doesnt burn and Im sure all of us have had water in our gas at one point or another, and for those of us that havent, try pouring gas into a bowl, then mixing a small amount of water with it and see how well it burns
(DISCLAIMER:: Dont actually do that for you might burn your eyebrows off if you dont proceed with this test proficciently)
basically, if it were indeed to have water qualities, your vehicle would run extremely rough every time you fill the tank up with ethanol rated gas.
I don't, however, agree with the E85 being better for your vehicle than standard gas. There are "flex fuel" cars meant to run on E85 (if the situation calls for it) and the rest arent. I know that most bifuel cars have extra emission controls and such to allow for them to proficiently do so.
In short, ehtanol IMHO isnt bad for your car, also, dont run straight E85. if you do so, I actually run (every once in a very blue moon) 2 gallons race fuel (E85) and fill up with regular or premium.
#7
01-28-2011, 06:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU
That link is a video where two instructors from a tech school in Minnesota tore down the engine, exhaust, and fuel system of a 2000 Tahoe that was run on E85 for over 100k miles (this was a pre-FlexFuel Tahoe). Granted the video is E85 propaganda, but it's still interesting to see the insides of the engine and fuel system after running on E85 either way.
That link is a video where two instructors from a tech school in Minnesota tore down the engine, exhaust, and fuel system of a 2000 Tahoe that was run on E85 for over 100k miles (this was a pre-FlexFuel Tahoe). Granted the video is E85 propaganda, but it's still interesting to see the insides of the engine and fuel system after running on E85 either way.
#8
01-28-2011, 06:26 AM
...Great Thread ? `Richard,Very Informative...Thanks 2 all that contributed 4-Sure...
Ethanol As A Fuel
Do I have to do anything to my engine to use a 10% ethanol fuel? All engines built from 1970 ... Will ethanol hurt my older engine designed for leaded gas? ...
autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa102100a_2.htm - Cached - Similar
#9
01-28-2011, 09:20 AM
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 1,715
I have been going to school recently at the University of NorthWestern Ohio and have received a certificate in "Natural Gas Vehicle System Inspection and Service" as well as in "Propane Vehicle Training" by the National Alternative Fuels Training Consortium, and I do have experience with working on hybrid vehicles as well as FlexFuel vehicles too.
With that being said, there really isn't anything to be worried about by filling up with gasoline that is 10% or 15% ethanol.
I am not aware of any state that makes it mandatory that gasoline must have at least 10% ethanol in it, but the states do encourage it.
Where I am in Ohio, and my home in Michigan, there really aren't a lot (if any) gas stations that have a 10% ethanol blend. But if I saw it, I would buy it.
There is a possibility of that some components will not last after a period of time, but it depends on the components of the fueling system mostly. What ethanol is is basically alcohol that you can ingest (moonshine), and is made with natural crops (corn, sugar cane, etc). Alcohol is a cleaner, and because of this it might wear out some vulnerable rubber components, but otherwise the engine will be fine and in fact be in better shape because it's running ethanol through it.
Mileage is slightly affected negatively by using ethanol (E10 might make you lose 1-2mpg), however the emissions coming out of the exhaust is reduced significantly.
I believe we should because of a number of reasons.
1) It's cleaner energy. There are no hydrocarbons in ethanol. Hydrocarbons are one of the main reasons why gasoline is so dirty.
2) This kind of goes along with number 1, but if you take an engine that has been running with gasoline and pull a head off of it, and compare it with an engine that has been running ethanol through it, you will be shocked with the difference. The engine run on gasoline will be dirty with hydrocarbons caked onto everything. Yet, the engine that was run on ethanol will be spotless. Even if you have run an engine on gasoline and then switch to E85 for example, the E85 will literally clean your engine and make it perform better.
3) Ethanol as a fuel is cheaper at the moment. I realize that this is because of government subsidies, but as a consumer this is beneficial. Plus you are taking some money away from foreign oil by using ethanol in fuel.
4) This goes along with number 3. If you run your vehicle on E85 you are basically running a fuel with high octane. Some say E85 is as low as 94-96 octane, or as high as 105 octane. So, even if E85 is the same price or is slightly higher in price then regular unleaded, you should actually be comparing E85 to premium unleaded prices. In this situation, it's cheap.
5) Ethanol increases your octane rating. Now, at 10% or 15% ethanol, you won't see a significant increase in the octane level (and there will be no advertised difference), but with E85 you are basically running cheap race fuel. So if you are into tuning the PCM in these cars, you can turn up the timing because of the E85. The problem with that is if you do tune your PCM to accept E85, you will have to always run on it and that can be a problem because E85 isn't available at every gas station.
This is a myth actually. Engines do not get damaged because of ethanol. There might be a fuel line that wears out prematurely, but otherwise your engine is fine. You see, the problem comes when people have run gasoline through their vehicle and then switch to E85. Suddenly, their engine starts acting up and begins to have problems. So instinctively they blame it on the E85. But what actually happened was that the E85 cleaned up the whole fuel system of all of the old hydrocarbons that were left behind from gasoline. By doing this, hydrocarbons will clog up in the fuel filter or injectors. But, if you clean the injectors after switching to E85, and replace the fuel filter after a few fill ups with E85, your engine will run great!
So to sum it up,
1) Ethanol will make your vehicle lose a little bit of mileage, but the bigger problem is people's right foot.
2) Ethanol is cleaner and reduces emissions, and I have no problem with trying to clean and take care of God's green Earth.
3) Ethanol is basically race fuel. Always a plus there for me
4) Ethanol does not in any way damage engines, but instead cleans them.
Hope that helps!
With that being said, there really isn't anything to be worried about by filling up with gasoline that is 10% or 15% ethanol.
I am not aware of any state that makes it mandatory that gasoline must have at least 10% ethanol in it, but the states do encourage it.
Where I am in Ohio, and my home in Michigan, there really aren't a lot (if any) gas stations that have a 10% ethanol blend. But if I saw it, I would buy it.
There is a possibility of that some components will not last after a period of time, but it depends on the components of the fueling system mostly. What ethanol is is basically alcohol that you can ingest (moonshine), and is made with natural crops (corn, sugar cane, etc). Alcohol is a cleaner, and because of this it might wear out some vulnerable rubber components, but otherwise the engine will be fine and in fact be in better shape because it's running ethanol through it.
Mileage is slightly affected negatively by using ethanol (E10 might make you lose 1-2mpg), however the emissions coming out of the exhaust is reduced significantly.
I believe we should because of a number of reasons.
1) It's cleaner energy. There are no hydrocarbons in ethanol. Hydrocarbons are one of the main reasons why gasoline is so dirty.
2) This kind of goes along with number 1, but if you take an engine that has been running with gasoline and pull a head off of it, and compare it with an engine that has been running ethanol through it, you will be shocked with the difference. The engine run on gasoline will be dirty with hydrocarbons caked onto everything. Yet, the engine that was run on ethanol will be spotless. Even if you have run an engine on gasoline and then switch to E85 for example, the E85 will literally clean your engine and make it perform better.
3) Ethanol as a fuel is cheaper at the moment. I realize that this is because of government subsidies, but as a consumer this is beneficial. Plus you are taking some money away from foreign oil by using ethanol in fuel.
4) This goes along with number 3. If you run your vehicle on E85 you are basically running a fuel with high octane. Some say E85 is as low as 94-96 octane, or as high as 105 octane. So, even if E85 is the same price or is slightly higher in price then regular unleaded, you should actually be comparing E85 to premium unleaded prices. In this situation, it's cheap.
5) Ethanol increases your octane rating. Now, at 10% or 15% ethanol, you won't see a significant increase in the octane level (and there will be no advertised difference), but with E85 you are basically running cheap race fuel. So if you are into tuning the PCM in these cars, you can turn up the timing because of the E85. The problem with that is if you do tune your PCM to accept E85, you will have to always run on it and that can be a problem because E85 isn't available at every gas station.
This is a myth actually. Engines do not get damaged because of ethanol. There might be a fuel line that wears out prematurely, but otherwise your engine is fine. You see, the problem comes when people have run gasoline through their vehicle and then switch to E85. Suddenly, their engine starts acting up and begins to have problems. So instinctively they blame it on the E85. But what actually happened was that the E85 cleaned up the whole fuel system of all of the old hydrocarbons that were left behind from gasoline. By doing this, hydrocarbons will clog up in the fuel filter or injectors. But, if you clean the injectors after switching to E85, and replace the fuel filter after a few fill ups with E85, your engine will run great!
So to sum it up,
1) Ethanol will make your vehicle lose a little bit of mileage, but the bigger problem is people's right foot.
2) Ethanol is cleaner and reduces emissions, and I have no problem with trying to clean and take care of God's green Earth.
3) Ethanol is basically race fuel. Always a plus there for me
4) Ethanol does not in any way damage engines, but instead cleans them.
Hope that helps!
#10
01-28-2011, 09:49 AM
No problem. I know it sounds like I'm on the E85 propaganda bandwagon, but to be honest I have no investment in producing ethanol. Before I knew anything about ethanol, I didn't want anything to do with it. But the more I started learning about it, the more I realized that people who are against it don't understand what ethanol is about. I've even heard a radio dj say that ethanol will ruin transmissions.
The main problem that I have with E85 isn't the fuel itself, it's the government subsidies. If there weren't any, E85 would probably cost around the price of premium unleaded. But like I said before, it's basically race fuel, and what race fuel can you find for that price?
The main problem that I have with E85 isn't the fuel itself, it's the government subsidies. If there weren't any, E85 would probably cost around the price of premium unleaded. But like I said before, it's basically race fuel, and what race fuel can you find for that price?