I was a little off, the GTP was available until '05. In '06 the GT got the supercharged engine. The GXP was released in '05 as well, so there was both a GTP and GXP that year. I thought that was true for both '05 and '06.

I don't know if he's convinced, but considering that the potential for power is so much greater with the 3800 (and starting at a much lower cost in the first place), I would explore it as an option.

-Riggs.

 

i'd like to post up a build progress but right now things are goign extremly slow, right now i just have a empty block and trans, and i'm slowing getting to the headers, the intakes are ported and blended, still gotta do the heads..lots of work, i still have to select parts and build the trans.
As far as why the 3400 and shoot for 275CHP, well, the 3800 was only rated for 20 more hsp than the 3400 for starters, second, the 3400 has alot of great things going for it and is only just started to get explored. Unlike the 3800 which has been around for 24 or so years now. Yes its had its revisions, but it has allowed the after market to widly grow. Trust me, give the 60* a chance and in good time many will be shocked. Next thing on the build sheet for the 60* is a one piece blower intake, and we all know how may people would love that.

Bob

 

The 60* sounds better for the most part.

 

There's really not much holding the 3800 back, engine wise. It's already been shown that a stock 3800 short block can take a ridiculous amount of abuse.
It's the FWD platform and specifically the weak transmission that is the big holdup in a 3800 build.
As far as age, the 3400 has been around equally as long in it's current form and even longer if you include the 3100 (which is even more similar to the 3400 than the series I 3800 is to the series II 3800).
The real advantage that comes into it is comparing costs...you're going to pull much more power out of an L67 than you will a 3400 dollar for dollar.

 

Add me to another one of those people saying to either swap in an L67, or buy a GTP with all that mod money. $4600 will buy you a used GTP (preferably stock) in pretty good shape from a private party- you just have to look around craigslist, ebay, local listings, etc. Also, you can't really compare the price of those parts to what Milzy charges for an L67 swap- as said above, it can be done under $1500- heck you can buy a totalled GTP for $750-1500 depending how bad the damage is, and part out what you don't need that wasn't damaged in the wreck to make up some cost.

I bought a ~70k mile 98 GTP years ago for $1500 that was only damaged down the drivers side. Even leaving the shell and body panels (I only took the parts that would fit in the trunk of my Impala driving home)- I still managed to make back a decent chunk of that money selling parts I didn't need. I'd imagine prices are even lower nowadays.


Honestly, 15.9 is pretty slow- especially compared to new 2010 model cars. I'm not trying to be rude here- but you're really going to want to get at least to the 13/14 second area to even have a shot at most cars on the street (outside of vettes, cobras, etc- I'm talking about normal modded cars). The way I see it, there are two easy ways of doing this:

A) Buy a used GTP. Pro's: 100% OEM reliability, stock gas mileage, absolutely 0 labor work, easy to continue to mod, you'd have 2 cars for what you would've had wrapped up in 1. Con's: insuring 2 cars, possibly buying a lemon if you don't know what to look for buying used.

B) L67 swap: Pro's: not too much more labor intensive than your heads/cam and other mods, easy to continue to mod, OEM reliable powertrain (assuming you install it correctly). Con's: goofed up install if you don't know what you're doing (same goes for the heads/cam on your 3400 though), requires a couple more tools (only thing I can think of is a cherry picker which is only $99 at HF).

Honestly, there is a reason why most people stick to modding the 3800's (L67's in particular). I know I'll probably get flamed for this as usual- but bang for the buck just isn't there on these engines NA (3400 or 3800). Think about it- small displacement, low compression, crappy flowing 2v OHV heads- they just don't have a solid core for making big NA power.

If you want to be unique and mod the 3400- that's cool, but if you're going to drop that kinda money, I'd at least custom fab a turbo or CSC setup or do some direct port nitrous or something that will at least get you some major results for the money spent. You'd hate to drop all that money, and still get beat by basic bolt on GTP's and such.

If your mind is open to the 3800 route- I'd suggest going around to small local dealerships- find one with a GTP, and take it for a test drive- can't hurt anything by at least doing that.

This highlights the point I'm trying to make- you're talking an aftermarket cam (a couple hundred bucks), full porting- I'm assuming this includes heads (easily $1000-2000 depending who does the port work), custom headers ($$ ?), and a custom dyno tune ($300+)- plus I'm assuming all the other normal mods like intake/exhaust, etc- so an easy $3k+ for the average person to buy, and tons of labor just to get on par with a bone stock L32 GTP at 260 bhp (ie 04+), and for less power than a basic bolt on 3.4" pulley L67 (which tend to make at or just under 300 bhp).

This is incorrect- those 'revisions' you speak of realistically break it into totally different engines. None of the GN 3.8 turbo engine mods work with the new 3800 series 2 and 3; nor do any of the 3800 series 1 parts. So its not like all the aftermarket has been accumulating for years. The series 2 3800's didn't appear until the mid 90's, so we're talking only about 15 years of age for the current revision of the engine (and since the performance parts aren't interchangeable to the old ones, they don't really matter)- which also happens to be about the same age as the 60* V6's (3100, 3400, etc).

Here's the thing- I gave up on my 3100 years ago due to lack of aftermarket (at the time there was almost nothing available)- the engines have been out for years, heck the montes have been running a 3100 (virtually the same as the 3400) since 95, and we're still waiting for a decent aftermarket.

My reason with really loving the 3800's has been that you can go out tomorrow and order bolt on parts to hit any power level you want (within reason of course- not talking some 1000+ whp supra style setup)-with plenty of people in the 500 & 600 whp range. You can literally go to zzp, buy the stattama turbo kit, a nice cam, ported aluminum heads, and a built trans- bolt them all on and have an easy 400-500 whp car. Same with the supercharged setup- you can go out and literally buy the parts to make an easy 350+ whp and they all bolt on.

With the 3100/3400/etc you still can't do that. AFAIK there is no bolt on boost solution, and AFAIK there are no NA 60* V6's making the kind of power numbers mentioned above (especially not with bolt on, catalog ordered parts).

Personally, I just got tired of waiting and hoping that one day the aftermarket might drastically increase for the 60* engines.

 

this might be true for dollar figure, considering you can bolt on a pully to the blower, but what i was going after about the 3800 being around for 24 years is that people have been boosting them with the GP's since they came factory with them, as far as the 2.8 at that time was this anchor. So when the 3800 came from GM with a turbo, go fast guys have been upping the boost, and spending money to make them go faster, and as soon as aftermarket companies saw this, they went after this aswell. Now, only now (maybe since 2004) had the 60* become more popular and worth while to play with. If you actually held a 3400 head stripped in your hands your would realise that some time went into these motors and it comes with a really nice head from factory, and can be improved on easly, and after that these motors are almost full rollers with the acception of the tip of the rocker, which is awesome.

I'm putting my motor together nice and sound with wide cam bearings, heavy timing chain, and SP skirt coated pistons to get rid of all the internal problems these motors have, which the same would be done with anymore to see abuse. and its getting done for fairly cheap, all the bearings are going to come out to $100, pistons are $25-35 each, and the 99-pre chain is $150, i'd go with a double roller but i dont know if i'll have enough time and $ to send the crank out.

The 3400 block can only hold to about 450hsp "boosted" till the valley splits, but the 3500 (which is a whole new story) can handle alot more with the bullit crank, oil injectors, stronger block, and better flowing heads, which are all stock parts. Plans are in the making to push one to 800hp TT.

End result, i would like to see more guys build the 60* only because it will help the market grow more and more. I have nothing against the 3800 aside it sounds like crap (haha), and there is a Huge aftermarket for it. I would like to see the same for a smaller platform, better designed engine, and i mean that by the things i mentioned.

BTW BocaReject, i plan on making only 2 sets of longtube 120* (same idea as 180*) headers for a montecarlo, which i hope to be entierly worth the effort. They would idealy make the motor sound like this:
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/ferrari-o...ticle?mid=9902
I would like everyone to listen to this 2.8 Fiero, if you think its fake, scroll to the bottom.


Bob

 

Here's a guy with a 3400 GA thats supercharged amoung other things and he as you can see has a respectable build:
'00 Grand Am GT 3400 supercharged
13.901 @ 97.34 mph, 298whp 262 ft/lbs
Gotta love boost!

Here's a thread on 3400 build too.
http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthre...nd-Am-GT-Build

If you haven't read through those forums; you should!

 

When I owned my 99 Grand Am GT, I was on GrandAmGT.com all the time. It was on there that I found out that about a dozon superchargers were made for the grand ams for some reason. I can't remember the exact reason. I think they were part of an experimental supercharged concept Grand Am. They were supposed to go into mass production, but the unreliability of the 3400 engines caused the cancellation of the superchargers. But I remember the dozon or so superchargers that were made have been making their way around from one owner to another.

When I traded in my grand am for the monte in 2007, those dozon or so superchargers were the only ones known to be in existence. But it's possible that a company has since produced more.

 

I have nothing useful to offer, but this has been a very informative thread.

 

thanks for all the helpful things guys,this is what i came up with,getting a 3.8 n/a or sc and puting it on,i heard that the sc has problems and that the n/a motor is better and throw a turbo on it or after market sc