Performance mod breakdown?
#1
11-18-2010, 04:52 PM
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wentzville, Missouri
Posts: 4,528
Performance mod breakdown?
Soo I saw this on the GM Forum & the guy said that he copied this off of another forum & I was just wondering if y'all think this is about right. It seems like a good thing to go by but I wanna make sure before I follow it...I already knew a lot of the stuff but I didn't know exactly when you need to do each one like it states
This should be a quick down and dirty to the ever present question. When can I run a 3.4, 3.25, 3.0 etc.... Take into account this write up will be on the more conservative side and I think everyone will agree that this aplies to 95% of GTP's. Obviously that 5% applies to people with already hurt motors or if you have 150k miles, have gone 10's of thousands of miles between oil changes etc... you may want to rethink modding at all and start fresh. With this list you should be knock free, however its always a good idea to either buy a scantool or join one of your local chapters and find someone close by with one to scan for kr, however like I said this list is designed to almost guarantee 0 KR.Anyone please feel free to addin suggestions or comments and I will adjust this accordingly.
Well start with the 3.4 pulley as it usually starts the majority of these questions. Below you will find a list of supporting mods that should be in place prior to installing that 3.4. Can you get away with less? Possibly. Have people gotten away with less? Yes. Do you want to take the chance? Enough said.
1. PCM- standard v 1.0 will suffice at this level.
2. CAI/FWI- Cold Air Intake/ Fenderwell Intake, you can build your own or purchase one from a vendor.
3. Ported Exhaust Manifolds/ Headers/ ZZP Powerlog- your choice, at this level Pems or the Powerlog are fine, if your planning on further modding later you will need headers, only you know your budget.
4. 3" Downpipe- Crushbendt which most exhaust shops will do is unadvised, preferable to purchase an aftermarket from one of the vendors.
5. 1-2 Heat range colder plugs. i.e Autolite 104's or equivelent gapped in the .050-.055 range
6. Ubend delete- just after the cat, most exhaust shops will be able to remove this and put in a straight pipe.
Thats it, doesnt sound too hard right? Fortunately your reading this, back when alot of us blew our motors there was no such write up and no such guidance. These 5 items are considered necessary, of course you can change your thermo to a 180 unit, also wouldnt hurt. Also quite a few people add a set of 1.9 ratio rockers to that list. If you plan on staying at this mod level, I agree, add the rockers, if your planning on continuing on in the quest of more speed and wont be at this level for very long skip the rockers.
Now onto the 3.2-3.25 Pulley. Obviously this is going to take more extensive supporting mods. Add all from above and include:
1. Camshaft- take your personal pick, do a search these have been compared time and time again. Addin supporting components, i.e stiffer springs, new pushrods, check with the vendor for individual needs.
2. Ported and Polished heads, larger valves- check with the vendors on this one, will be your best bet to invest in a stage 2 or 3.
3. Headers- if you had Pems before your dangerously close to being out of their level, sell and get some headers.
4. Larger Throttle Body- again these have been compared, take your personal pick.
5. 2-3 heat range cooler plugs, you can stay with 104's but may need to switch to 103's
6. Retuned PCM to add in the cam and free flowing heads etc....
3.0 Pulley needs extensive mods, and honestly you shouldnt even be considering if you have to read this, but just in case take all from above and add:
1. High flow Cat
2.Cat-Back system
3. 42.5# injectors
4. Upgraded fuel system
5. Stage 4 heads
6.Powertuner/HPTuners or some other means to custom write onto your PCM during a dyno session.
Now yes notice I didnt say anything about Intercoolers in any of those combinations. Either a Short Stack or Full size intercooler obviously adjusts those combinations. However I dont agree with the idea of just slapping on an IC to address an issue. Can you run a 3.25 with a full size IC and no other supporting mods? Our vendors say yes. Will you get knock? No probably not. Is it a knucklehead way of thinking? Abso***inglutely. Go ask people who have dealt with forced induction far longer than our motors have been around, if they would almost double the stock boost with just an IC backing it up, not a single one will say yes, Ill bet my next year salary on it. IC's are great, and have their uses, but you need to have a foundation first. Endeth the sermon.
sooo what do you guys think?
This should be a quick down and dirty to the ever present question. When can I run a 3.4, 3.25, 3.0 etc.... Take into account this write up will be on the more conservative side and I think everyone will agree that this aplies to 95% of GTP's. Obviously that 5% applies to people with already hurt motors or if you have 150k miles, have gone 10's of thousands of miles between oil changes etc... you may want to rethink modding at all and start fresh. With this list you should be knock free, however its always a good idea to either buy a scantool or join one of your local chapters and find someone close by with one to scan for kr, however like I said this list is designed to almost guarantee 0 KR.Anyone please feel free to addin suggestions or comments and I will adjust this accordingly.
Well start with the 3.4 pulley as it usually starts the majority of these questions. Below you will find a list of supporting mods that should be in place prior to installing that 3.4. Can you get away with less? Possibly. Have people gotten away with less? Yes. Do you want to take the chance? Enough said.
1. PCM- standard v 1.0 will suffice at this level.
2. CAI/FWI- Cold Air Intake/ Fenderwell Intake, you can build your own or purchase one from a vendor.
3. Ported Exhaust Manifolds/ Headers/ ZZP Powerlog- your choice, at this level Pems or the Powerlog are fine, if your planning on further modding later you will need headers, only you know your budget.
4. 3" Downpipe- Crushbendt which most exhaust shops will do is unadvised, preferable to purchase an aftermarket from one of the vendors.
5. 1-2 Heat range colder plugs. i.e Autolite 104's or equivelent gapped in the .050-.055 range
6. Ubend delete- just after the cat, most exhaust shops will be able to remove this and put in a straight pipe.
Thats it, doesnt sound too hard right? Fortunately your reading this, back when alot of us blew our motors there was no such write up and no such guidance. These 5 items are considered necessary, of course you can change your thermo to a 180 unit, also wouldnt hurt. Also quite a few people add a set of 1.9 ratio rockers to that list. If you plan on staying at this mod level, I agree, add the rockers, if your planning on continuing on in the quest of more speed and wont be at this level for very long skip the rockers.
Now onto the 3.2-3.25 Pulley. Obviously this is going to take more extensive supporting mods. Add all from above and include:
1. Camshaft- take your personal pick, do a search these have been compared time and time again. Addin supporting components, i.e stiffer springs, new pushrods, check with the vendor for individual needs.
2. Ported and Polished heads, larger valves- check with the vendors on this one, will be your best bet to invest in a stage 2 or 3.
3. Headers- if you had Pems before your dangerously close to being out of their level, sell and get some headers.
4. Larger Throttle Body- again these have been compared, take your personal pick.
5. 2-3 heat range cooler plugs, you can stay with 104's but may need to switch to 103's
6. Retuned PCM to add in the cam and free flowing heads etc....
3.0 Pulley needs extensive mods, and honestly you shouldnt even be considering if you have to read this, but just in case take all from above and add:
1. High flow Cat
2.Cat-Back system
3. 42.5# injectors
4. Upgraded fuel system
5. Stage 4 heads
6.Powertuner/HPTuners or some other means to custom write onto your PCM during a dyno session.
Now yes notice I didnt say anything about Intercoolers in any of those combinations. Either a Short Stack or Full size intercooler obviously adjusts those combinations. However I dont agree with the idea of just slapping on an IC to address an issue. Can you run a 3.25 with a full size IC and no other supporting mods? Our vendors say yes. Will you get knock? No probably not. Is it a knucklehead way of thinking? Abso***inglutely. Go ask people who have dealt with forced induction far longer than our motors have been around, if they would almost double the stock boost with just an IC backing it up, not a single one will say yes, Ill bet my next year salary on it. IC's are great, and have their uses, but you need to have a foundation first. Endeth the sermon.
sooo what do you guys think?
#2
11-19-2010, 04:47 PM
The info in that write-up is helpful, but a little exaggerated. For example;
"Well start with the 3.4 pulley as it usually starts the majority of these questions. Below you will find a list of supporting mods that should be in place prior to installing that 3.4. Can you get away with less? Possibly. Have people gotten away with less? Yes. Do you want to take the chance? Enough said.
1. PCM- standard v 1.0 will suffice at this level.
2. CAI/FWI- Cold Air Intake/ Fenderwell Intake, you can build your own or purchase one from a vendor.
3. Ported Exhaust Manifolds/ Headers/ ZZP Powerlog- your choice, at this level Pems or the Powerlog are fine, if your planning on further modding later you will need headers, only you know your budget.
4. 3" Downpipe- Crushbendt which most exhaust shops will do is unadvised, preferable to purchase an aftermarket from one of the vendors.
5. 1-2 Heat range colder plugs. i.e Autolite 104's or equivelent gapped in the .050-.055 range
6. Ubend delete- just after the cat, most exhaust shops will be able to remove this and put in a straight pipe."
Item 3 - you don't need PEM's or a Plog to run a 3.4" pulley.
Iems 4/6 - can be done just by simply buying a bolt-in 3" DP.
Item 5 - is partially incorrect. For a 3.4" pulley you should use a 2 step colder plug such as autolite 104's, but a 1 step colder plug such as autolite 605's are not cold enough for a 3.4". The 605's can be used in conjunction with the stock pulley though with good results.
Since the article seems to have come from a GTP website, the basic 3.4" setup should include;
1- reprogrammed pcm, either with a tuner or from a vendor
2- CAI or FWI
3- 180* t-stat or 160* is ok if you live in the warmer climates
4- 2 steps colder spark plugs, copper cores are the preferred choice
5- 3" DP since we are talking about supercharged applications
6- 3.4" pulley, press on or modular hub, depending on further modding
7- supercharger belt, preferred is the Bates over the gatorback
As for this statement, "Also quite a few people add a set of 1.9 ratio rockers to that list. If you plan on staying at this mod level, I agree, add the rockers, if your planning on continuing on in the quest of more speed and wont be at this level for very long skip the rockers."
1.9 rockers are a good start, but not necessary for a 3.4" setup. Also, you have to be careful with 1.9's and your shift points. If you shift over 5800rpm with the 1.9's then you should change out the valve springs as well to a heavier spring.
On to the 3.2-3.25" part;
Now onto the 3.2-3.25 Pulley. Obviously this is going to take more extensive supporting mods. Add all from above and include:
1. Camshaft- take your personal pick, do a search these have been compared time and time again. Addin supporting components, i.e stiffer springs, new pushrods, check with the vendor for individual needs.
2. Ported and Polished heads, larger valves- check with the vendors on this one, will be your best bet to invest in a stage 2 or 3.
3. Headers- if you had Pems before your dangerously close to being out of their level, sell and get some headers.
4. Larger Throttle Body- again these have been compared, take your personal pick.
5. 2-3 heat range cooler plugs, you can stay with 104's but may need to switch to 103's
6. Retuned PCM to add in the cam and free flowing heads etc....
1. You DO NOT need a cam in order to run a 3.2 or 3.25" pulley.
2. You DO NOT need ported and polished heads to run a 3.2/3.25" pulley
3. Headers are highly recommended at this stage
4. Larger TB is a good move, most go with the Northstar (N*)
5. Stick with the 2 step colder plugs.
6. Re-tuning for the smaller pulley, headers, and bigger TB are all that are necessary at this point.
*note* If you go down to a 3.2" it is a good idea to keep an eye out on your injector pulse widths at this point. You could be very close to maxing out your injectors. If you wanted to upgrade to 42.5# injectors then that will also require pcm re-tuning.
Onto the 3.0",
3.0 Pulley needs extensive mods, and honestly you shouldnt even be considering if you have to read this, but just in case take all from above and add:
1. High flow Cat
2.Cat-Back system
3. 42.5# injectors
4. Upgraded fuel system
5. Stage 4 heads
6.Powertuner/HPTuners or some other means to custom write onto your PCM during a dyno session.
Now yes notice I didnt say anything about Intercoolers in any of those combinations. Either a Short Stack or Full size intercooler obviously adjusts those combinations. However I dont agree with the idea of just slapping on an IC to address an issue. Can you run a 3.25 with a full size IC and no other supporting mods? Our vendors say yes. Will you get knock? No probably not. Is it a knucklehead way of thinking? Abso***inglutely. Go ask people who have dealt with forced induction far longer than our motors have been around, if they would almost double the stock boost with just an IC backing it up, not a single one will say yes, Ill bet my next year salary on it. IC's are great, and have their uses, but you need to have a foundation first. Endeth the sermon.
1- high flow cat should already come with the headers unless you buy TOGs that require their own DP
2- cat-back systems are mostly for sound and have little affect on performance. Once you are up over the 300hp range, you could get a cat-back system. Have people run 3.0 pulleys on stock cat-back? Yes.
4- always a good idea to upgrade the fuel pump, maybe a walbro or racetronix unit. ZZP also sells the fuel pump re-wire kit.
5- If you do not plan on caming the car, which I don't know why you would go through all of the trouble to put a 3.0 pulley on and not cam it, then no real head work is required, besides valve springs. Especially not Stg 4 heads.
6- always a good idea to have your own tuning method, but you can also have a local member help you with a tune.
Now take it from someone that bought a short stack intercooler, go with a full size. It will save you some headaches and open more doors for you. Of course if you want to build a nice motor, you need to be able to put all of that power down to the ground. The stock trans will hold up to a 3.4" setup, should last quite awhile with a 3.2/3.25 build (depending on driving habits), and if you go cam then you will need a built trans.
Always have a method of scanning when modding. A lot of people use the aeroforce scan gauge. A tuner will be able to do the same and there is also the scan gauge.
If you don't believe me, here is a list of engine mods on my 2002 gtp;
SLP CAI
Overkill re-programmed pcm
180* t-stat
Ported TB
Ported s/c housing (inlet/outlet)
ZZP modular pulley hub with 3.2" pulley
ZZP short stack intercooler
SLP 1.8 roller rockers
Auto lite 104's, gapped at .053
SLP headers with cat
SLP powerflo cat-back system
I have 0* knock at 18* timing. Hope my sermon has helped clear some of this up.
SpinEm_90, just wondering, how old was this article that you found? Also, what is the mod plan for your car?
"Well start with the 3.4 pulley as it usually starts the majority of these questions. Below you will find a list of supporting mods that should be in place prior to installing that 3.4. Can you get away with less? Possibly. Have people gotten away with less? Yes. Do you want to take the chance? Enough said.
1. PCM- standard v 1.0 will suffice at this level.
2. CAI/FWI- Cold Air Intake/ Fenderwell Intake, you can build your own or purchase one from a vendor.
3. Ported Exhaust Manifolds/ Headers/ ZZP Powerlog- your choice, at this level Pems or the Powerlog are fine, if your planning on further modding later you will need headers, only you know your budget.
4. 3" Downpipe- Crushbendt which most exhaust shops will do is unadvised, preferable to purchase an aftermarket from one of the vendors.
5. 1-2 Heat range colder plugs. i.e Autolite 104's or equivelent gapped in the .050-.055 range
6. Ubend delete- just after the cat, most exhaust shops will be able to remove this and put in a straight pipe."
Item 3 - you don't need PEM's or a Plog to run a 3.4" pulley.
Iems 4/6 - can be done just by simply buying a bolt-in 3" DP.
Item 5 - is partially incorrect. For a 3.4" pulley you should use a 2 step colder plug such as autolite 104's, but a 1 step colder plug such as autolite 605's are not cold enough for a 3.4". The 605's can be used in conjunction with the stock pulley though with good results.
Since the article seems to have come from a GTP website, the basic 3.4" setup should include;
1- reprogrammed pcm, either with a tuner or from a vendor
2- CAI or FWI
3- 180* t-stat or 160* is ok if you live in the warmer climates
4- 2 steps colder spark plugs, copper cores are the preferred choice
5- 3" DP since we are talking about supercharged applications
6- 3.4" pulley, press on or modular hub, depending on further modding
7- supercharger belt, preferred is the Bates over the gatorback
As for this statement, "Also quite a few people add a set of 1.9 ratio rockers to that list. If you plan on staying at this mod level, I agree, add the rockers, if your planning on continuing on in the quest of more speed and wont be at this level for very long skip the rockers."
1.9 rockers are a good start, but not necessary for a 3.4" setup. Also, you have to be careful with 1.9's and your shift points. If you shift over 5800rpm with the 1.9's then you should change out the valve springs as well to a heavier spring.
On to the 3.2-3.25" part;
Now onto the 3.2-3.25 Pulley. Obviously this is going to take more extensive supporting mods. Add all from above and include:
1. Camshaft- take your personal pick, do a search these have been compared time and time again. Addin supporting components, i.e stiffer springs, new pushrods, check with the vendor for individual needs.
2. Ported and Polished heads, larger valves- check with the vendors on this one, will be your best bet to invest in a stage 2 or 3.
3. Headers- if you had Pems before your dangerously close to being out of their level, sell and get some headers.
4. Larger Throttle Body- again these have been compared, take your personal pick.
5. 2-3 heat range cooler plugs, you can stay with 104's but may need to switch to 103's
6. Retuned PCM to add in the cam and free flowing heads etc....
1. You DO NOT need a cam in order to run a 3.2 or 3.25" pulley.
2. You DO NOT need ported and polished heads to run a 3.2/3.25" pulley
3. Headers are highly recommended at this stage
4. Larger TB is a good move, most go with the Northstar (N*)
5. Stick with the 2 step colder plugs.
6. Re-tuning for the smaller pulley, headers, and bigger TB are all that are necessary at this point.
*note* If you go down to a 3.2" it is a good idea to keep an eye out on your injector pulse widths at this point. You could be very close to maxing out your injectors. If you wanted to upgrade to 42.5# injectors then that will also require pcm re-tuning.
Onto the 3.0",
3.0 Pulley needs extensive mods, and honestly you shouldnt even be considering if you have to read this, but just in case take all from above and add:
1. High flow Cat
2.Cat-Back system
3. 42.5# injectors
4. Upgraded fuel system
5. Stage 4 heads
6.Powertuner/HPTuners or some other means to custom write onto your PCM during a dyno session.
Now yes notice I didnt say anything about Intercoolers in any of those combinations. Either a Short Stack or Full size intercooler obviously adjusts those combinations. However I dont agree with the idea of just slapping on an IC to address an issue. Can you run a 3.25 with a full size IC and no other supporting mods? Our vendors say yes. Will you get knock? No probably not. Is it a knucklehead way of thinking? Abso***inglutely. Go ask people who have dealt with forced induction far longer than our motors have been around, if they would almost double the stock boost with just an IC backing it up, not a single one will say yes, Ill bet my next year salary on it. IC's are great, and have their uses, but you need to have a foundation first. Endeth the sermon.
1- high flow cat should already come with the headers unless you buy TOGs that require their own DP
2- cat-back systems are mostly for sound and have little affect on performance. Once you are up over the 300hp range, you could get a cat-back system. Have people run 3.0 pulleys on stock cat-back? Yes.
4- always a good idea to upgrade the fuel pump, maybe a walbro or racetronix unit. ZZP also sells the fuel pump re-wire kit.
5- If you do not plan on caming the car, which I don't know why you would go through all of the trouble to put a 3.0 pulley on and not cam it, then no real head work is required, besides valve springs. Especially not Stg 4 heads.
6- always a good idea to have your own tuning method, but you can also have a local member help you with a tune.
Now take it from someone that bought a short stack intercooler, go with a full size. It will save you some headaches and open more doors for you. Of course if you want to build a nice motor, you need to be able to put all of that power down to the ground. The stock trans will hold up to a 3.4" setup, should last quite awhile with a 3.2/3.25 build (depending on driving habits), and if you go cam then you will need a built trans.
Always have a method of scanning when modding. A lot of people use the aeroforce scan gauge. A tuner will be able to do the same and there is also the scan gauge.
If you don't believe me, here is a list of engine mods on my 2002 gtp;
SLP CAI
Overkill re-programmed pcm
180* t-stat
Ported TB
Ported s/c housing (inlet/outlet)
ZZP modular pulley hub with 3.2" pulley
ZZP short stack intercooler
SLP 1.8 roller rockers
Auto lite 104's, gapped at .053
SLP headers with cat
SLP powerflo cat-back system
I have 0* knock at 18* timing. Hope my sermon has helped clear some of this up.
SpinEm_90, just wondering, how old was this article that you found? Also, what is the mod plan for your car?
Last edited by Condore21; 11-19-2010 at 05:33 PM.
#3
11-19-2010, 06:57 PM
There's a lot to read in both of your posts and it looks like Condore addressed the issues I had with the original list.
There is one thing though that I don't like about these lists. People won't read the whole thing and they need to know that they HAVE to keep scanning for KR. I know that the issue is addressed but they really really need to understand that this might not work since every car is different. Otherwise, the list with Condore's edit is pretty good.
There is one thing though that I don't like about these lists. People won't read the whole thing and they need to know that they HAVE to keep scanning for KR. I know that the issue is addressed but they really really need to understand that this might not work since every car is different. Otherwise, the list with Condore's edit is pretty good.
#8
11-21-2010, 06:47 PM
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wentzville, Missouri
Posts: 4,528
Ohh geez lol its a longgg list. Lemme find the paper that I wrote it all down on & I'll post it on here, I'll prob forget something if I try to do it right now 
#9
11-21-2010, 08:12 PM
Item 3 - you don't need PEM's or a Plog to run a 3.4" pulley.
1.9 rockers are a good start, but not necessary for a 3.4" setup. Also, you have to be careful with 1.9's and your shift points. If you shift over 5800rpm with the 1.9's then you should change out the valve springs as well to a heavier spring.
1.9 rockers are a good start, but not necessary for a 3.4" setup. Also, you have to be careful with 1.9's and your shift points. If you shift over 5800rpm with the 1.9's then you should change out the valve springs as well to a heavier spring.
For example, my old 99 gtp needed both the rockers and a PLOG (along with the other stuff) to run knock free on a 3.4" before I got my Powrtuner. Many L67's are plagued with knock (and obviously its just going to get worse as they all age with carbon buildup and increased oil leakage into the cylinders), and since most people going to a 3.4" don't tend to scan often- I'd rather be on the safe side. Heck, I got my PLOG used for $100 shipped, and the 1.9 modded stock rockers for only like $200 shipped. Even if the person didn't necessarily need them for knock reduction- the power gains alone would be well worth it at that level.
1. You DO NOT need a cam in order to run a 3.2 or 3.25" pulley.
2. You DO NOT need ported and polished heads to run a 3.2/3.25" pulley
2. You DO NOT need ported and polished heads to run a 3.2/3.25" pulley
Now yes notice I didnt say anything about Intercoolers in any of those combinations. Either a Short Stack or Full size intercooler obviously adjusts those combinations. However I dont agree with the idea of just slapping on an IC to address an issue. Can you run a 3.25 with a full size IC and no other supporting mods? Our vendors say yes. Will you get knock? No probably not. Is it a knucklehead way of thinking? Abso***inglutely. Go ask people who have dealt with forced induction far longer than our motors have been around, if they would almost double the stock boost with just an IC backing it up, not a single one will say yes, Ill bet my next year salary on it. IC's are great, and have their uses, but you need to have a foundation first.
I will admit, I'm against going straight to an IC- you are adding another maintenance item (another set of coolant, and an electric pump which will wear out)- so for basic setups, I'd far prefer rockers or a mild cam, headers, ported blower, etc first.
However, once you get past the basic bolt on stuff- I think it becomes an excellent option. Doing a nice full size IC can easily match the KR reducing ability of a moderate cam and heads for a fraction of the cost.
Personally, I'd rather rock an IC (or maybe an IC and cam) down to a 3.0, then worry about doing fully ported heads and a big cam with an IC- but thats just me.
#10
11-22-2010, 04:10 AM
I disagree with both statements. Actually, I strongly agree that PEM's or a PLOG should be mandatory for a 3.4"- many L67's seem to need them, and the front manifold is garbage anyways. Obviously 1.9 modded stock rockers aren't necessary for a larger group of 3.4" setups; but IMO, its a worthwhile mod, and are necessary on a decent chunk of 3.4" setups (especially just running an off the shelf tune.