HELP.
I know there is a lot of info across the site about swaps, but im looking to collect it all here. More or less.

I have a 2000 LS with too many miles on it and it is going to need a new engine soon. Im out for some serious power.

And no, im not just going to buy a faster car. i have too much invested in this one. Trust me. Full JL Audio system and a ton of dynamat, suspension, and custom interior. so no new car.

I want to get the 3.8 engine and do all my upgraded to it while i have it on an engine rack. So i can just drop it in the car ready to go. more or less.

How much HP/TQ can the stock HD transmission handle? I want that much.

I would like to stay away from turbos, because i know that diy turbo jobs rarely end well.

So i would like to squeeze as much hp ourt a SC (any sc) as possible.

First, i believe the 3.8 will bolt right up to the 3.4 mounts correct?

Next, L67 or L32? (Most power to the wheels after upgrades)

Supercharger? Eaton im sure is the best. M90?
http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_p...=162&catid=106

What internal engine mods should i look to install?

and Wiring? I have the LS gauge cluster, and two Aeroforce gauges, would i still need to upgrade to the ss cluster?

I think this is a good start. BUMPIN96MONTE... any insight? Your pretty much the god of monte info... lol

And BTW. IM NOT JUST TALKIN ABOUT IT. I WILL DO THE SWAP.

 

How much is serious power? To give you an idea of what is possible
stock NA 3800- about 160 whp
heavily modded NA 3800 - about 200 whp
stock SC 3800 - about 200 whp
mildly modded SC 3800 - about 240 whp
fully modded SC 3800 (using the stock SC)- about 400 to 425 whp
fully modded turbo 3800 - 500 to 600+ whp

I know exactly what you mean, I was the same way. Although, you will start to run into a problem if your audio system is as big as it sounds- because all the extra weight really shoots you in the foot negating some of your extra power. The problem is two fold- one being that you're going to obviously be noticeably slower than a stock weight car with the same power, and two being your transmission will be that much more stressed.

That's about what I did too- pretty nice way to go. Can be more of a pain to find problems doing so many mods at once, but if you're careful installing everything- its a lot easier. How much are you looking to spend on mods?

lol, not much. The stock HD transmission was rated right about at the stock amount for the SC 3800 (about 280 TQ). It might have been a little higher, but it was close. They use virtually the same transmission (it does have a few minor upgrades) in the FWD V8 cars that make about 325 TQ; but they don't seem to have much wiggle room for adding more power reliably, and many have transmission issues even stock.

I wouldn't be afraid to do a mild modded SC 3800 (3.4" pulley, headers, rockers, intake, plugs, etc) on a stock transmission- running about 300 crank hp (about the same as the FWD V8's do stock) or 240 whp- but too much more than that, and I'd definitely consider a built trans for when you do the swap.

Doesn't have to be a DIY job, but depends what year your car is. If you have the 3.4 DOHC (ie a 95-97 monte) then you will have to do some custom work to make a turbo kit work. If you have a 3400 (ie a 00+ monte), then the regular 3800 turbo kit will bolt right in.

I will say, if you want a lot of power- a turbo is the way to go. Even a basic turbo setup will eat any basic SC setup alive.

Max on the stock SC is about 425ish whp (although zzp did just do one higher)- but the bulk of the fully built stock SC setups run just under 400 whp with all the mods.

Now, there is the whipple- its a bigger SC- that has more potential (currently the best is like 530 whp)- but its a lot more money and time in the setup.

Do you have a 3.4 dohc or the 3400 sfi? IIRC you'd have to add the passenger side dogbone with the dohc engine since it only had one (although I believe the holes are drilled already)- but it will bolt into the stock holes for the 3400 sfi mounts (at least it did for my 3100 which is virtually the same engine).

L32 makes more power, it has the better SC (gen 5). The SC's are the same size- both M90's; but the L67 just uses an older model. For comparison, the stock L32 supercharger is equivalent to a fully ported stock L67 supercharger.

However, there are FAR more L67's out there- the L32's were much more of a limited run, so they're harder to find (and its only a 20 crank hp difference anyways). Plus, the L32's have a drive by wire TB (ie no throttle cable) and returnless fuel injection (ie only a feed hose for fuel, no return)- so you'd have to immediately convert to a standard fuel rail setup and to a cable driven throttle body (like an LS1 or northstar).

The stock eaton is far from the best. You won't need that ported M90 in the link if you buy an L32. That's only if you buy an L67.

Other positive displacement supercharger options include:

-M112 hybrid (basically you use the longer M112 rotors in your M90 with a spacer plate), not sure how well this works since so few run them

-MP112 conversion (a kit that used to be sold by Intense) which is a bigger supercharger from the same family as the stock supercharger

-whipple conversion (bigger and more efficient supercharger; but more difficult to install- as parts have to be sourced from all over)- can get a bit pricey, and you need to be pretty good with cars to get the setup right.

As far as the bottom end goes- I'd leave the stock shortblock bone stock. ZZP ran mid 8's in the 1/4 mile making over 600whp with their twin turbo setup on a stock bottom end. If you keep the KR/knock down and do proper mods for the boost you want to run; the stock bottom end will last forever- its a very stout bottom end.

More people end up having screwups from shops 'rebuilding' their setups, and end up spinning bearings and such for no reason- just stick with a stock bottom end.

However, I would advise sticking a different cam in there (many to choose from depending what you want) because its so much easier now than after you swap. Also, if you're wanting to do pretty big power- maybe some MLS head gaskets and ARP head studs would be a good idea- but I wouldn't touch the crank/pistons/block/etc.

I'm starting to get the feeling you have a 6th gen. I'm not as familiar with them. I would assume all you would need to do is find an SS engine bay harness for your year monte (the 3800 NA and SC have virtually the same harness- you just need to buy the L67 swap wiring adapter from zzp which is only 2 plugs). That way the new harness will plug right into your car, and right into your engine (except the few minor mods with the swap wiring kit).

I don't see why you'd have to switch clusters. I used my stock cluster and it reads fine.

Nope, I don't really have much help here... oh wait lol

Thanks

 

Bumpin, i knew you would have somethin to say on the topic.
just out of curiosity, how much whp is my CAI'd 3400 gettin?

My system actually isnt that heavy. The jl amps weigh next to nothing and i have two 12" W6s. So not too bad weight wise.

OK. So far i would be looking for a L67. i dont feel like messing with the fuel delivery system or figuring out the drive by wire.

I have 2000 LS. 3400 SFI. So, that means the 3800 turbo kit could bolt on with the 3800 installed?

I do have a turbo question. well a few actuallyI have heard that TC setups are very delicate... Small errors can be disastrous. True? or false?
I just want to have everything working with out having to worry about engine detonation or what not when i floor it.

Im not sure how much im lookin to spend. I do have limits, but if i want power i know im going to have to pay for it lol.

To be honest, im not extremely engine savvy. im just very handy and a fast learner. so i had no idea what you meant by returnless fuel injection and i wouldnt know what to look for in a cam. but im pretty sure i could install it. timing, compression, and KR are the type of technical stuff i dont understand yet.

oh and where would i find a built trans?

 

ZZP Z7 Turbo kit is a really nice one, easily upgradeable.

Your CAI 3400, probably nets you 162 whp

ZZP will help you with the PCM, though a custom tune would be best afterwards.

Tripleedgeperformance.com has good transmission information, and he's a good builder.

I would say, put aside about $4000 if you are serious about this.

 

I understand that there is a significant power difference between a turbo and a sc.

Bumpin you said That a fully modded SC 3800 could get around 425whp. the SC setup seems a lot more straight forward. and alot less expensive.

When you say "fully modded" are we just talking:
Built trans, SC, inter cooler, Throttle body upgrade, MAF sensor upgrade, CAI, PCM tune, ???
Engine internal parts upgrade?

I just got a thought... Is adding Nitrous a potential realistic idea? ( not for everyday use of course, but for the hell of it) is it safe, easy to install? or no lol.

would a ported SC, like the one in my first post, have better gains over a stock M90?

Chibi and Bumpin... you guys rock!!! hands down.

 

Fully done SC would be all the supporting mods, Cam, Headers, small pulleys, 1.7 roller rockers, springs, ported: heads, lim, SC, TB, etc. etc. Can get very very expensive.

I honestly would think Turbo for more efficient power and always room for improvement. Don't think the SC will be any easier if you want the HP numbers to be over 400

Also then you will be doing a lot of suspension work to even be able to handle this power. No point having 400+ HP if your wheels just spin.

 

With these cars, taking 80% of the stock crank hp rating will give you whp. So if your 3400 has 180 crank hp (probably also roughly the same with just a CAI)- thats about 144 whp.

I'm just saying- you mentioned 'a ton of dynamat', I bet the subs are in a wood box, add in the weight of the big power wires, and all the associated stuff and it really does add up. I'd imagine you could almost have the weight of another person by the time you add it all up.

Not that you can't be fast with all this stuff- just that its going to a pinch harder, and a little harder on the tranny too.


Yes- because then you essentially have a 00 SS, which is basically the same car as the grand prix GT's and such for which the turbo kits are advertised.

ZZP or Stattama (sold through ZZP as their most hardcore turbo kit)

The Z3 kit is the basic intro kit, the Z7 is the upgrade to that, and the Stattama kit is the 'all out' setup.

Yes


They send you a tuned pcm.

If you decide to run an intercooler, it mounts up front in front of your stock radiator (not sure on the montes, but depending on the size of the IC, you may have a bit of cutting/grinding to do to make it fit)- they'd be able to tell you for sure though.

No more so than a SC setup really- don't run without a filter and suck crap through the head unit, don't run the engine with knock (ie too high of boost for the engine mods), etc- its all about the same.

Well, you're always going to have to think about KR when doing a new setup. Since every car is different- you're going to do all your engine mods, and then turn up the boost until you reach the limit and it starts knocking (be that by using a smaller SC pulley, or adjusting your boost controller on a TC setup).

Then thats something you really need to think about before you buy anything. I will say, a lot of the really big power 3800 setups end up demodding and going Fbody, GTO, or G8- the big power setups don't hook well without slicks, and are heck on the transmission (especially at full street weight)- and they usually end up with a faster, more reliable setup for about the same money (keep in mind the best turbo kit alone is like $6k, and a fully built trans is like $4k+).

Just gonna have to read up. If you post your power goal and budget, we can help suggest a setup for you.

I will say, I hope you have another car that's your daily driver. The engine swaps aren't too bad- but if its your first time, there is a lot that can go wrong (especially on a modded engine)- and you'd hate to be stranded for weeks without a working car.

ZZP, dynotech, triple edge performance, are a couple of the big names in 3800 trannys.

Its just because you have to use power to spin the supercharger- the engine has to physically lose power spinning that belt, whereas the turbo is relatively free energy.

However, a supercharger setup is much cheaper- you can pick up a used M90 for $200, whereas any used turbo kit starts at least $2000.

IMO the SC is better for low to medium power goals, the TC is better for bigger power numbers.

Actually, the new record is now 437 whp by ZZP's car. However, when you're talking 350-400+ whp supercharged setups, its not really that straight forward, you're talking about a bunch of mods- IC, heads, cam, headers, etc etc- whereas a turbo setup can hit 350whp without so many other major mods. Its also not necessarily less expensive- consider how much stuff those ~400whp SC setups have, and how much it costs- total powertrain costs are likely $10k+ for all of them (including a built trans).

There are no real internal part upgrades needed.

By fully modded, I mean: heads, cam, headers, IC, ported blower, big TB, injectors, etc etc. Lots of parts.

Sure; it just kinda blows that your car is that much slower normally. It sucks losing a race because you 'didnt have the bottle open' or some other lame reason- whereas other engine mods give you all the extra power all the time. It is safe, and pretty easy to install. But figure the cost of all the nitrous refills if you spray a lot.

Yes, over a stock gen 3 M90 (like comes on the L67's)- it makes them about as good as the gen 5 M90 that comes on the L32's.

For big power, definitely. You give both setups cam, heads, etc etc- and the turbo setup will blow the SC setup away by at least 100 whp.


Honestly, anything much over 325-350whp starts getting retarded from a dig regardless what suspension mods you have done. I've rode in a few 450-500 whp turbo cars, and there is just zero traction around town in boost. Just not much you can do to gain traction in a FWD car, you can't go much wider on the tire or you can't turn, and even the stickiest street tires can't hold the power. Sure a set of slicks can, but you can't drive with those on the street.

 

I have spent some time reviewing all the info.

The TURBOCHARGED route:

I found a L67 engine and trans at 88k miles with all attached accessories for 3k without shipping.
Newgmparts had a NEW l67 engine w/o an SC for 3200.00.....?

The stage one turbo kit from 3800performance is 3199.00
The intercooler is 1099.00

A built trans mission would cost around 4k right?

that puts me at 11k min. WOW that adds up fast...
With all that how much power to the wheels am i looking at?
(yes i know some other odds and ends are needed too)


The SUPERCHARGED route:

I found a L67 engine and trans at 88k miles with all attached accessories for 3k without shipping.
Newgmparts had a NEW l67 engine w/ SC for 3700.00.....?

A built trans mission would cost around 4k right?

This set up is looking like a starting price of 8k



I have been reflecting... If i thought the bone stock 3400 was quick.... then some 'moderate gains' would probable make me happy lol

With this new perspective i just cant see myself putting 11k into this car

I can see $5000 or so

What can i get get for that. My new power cap is going to depend on how much the trans can handle. 4k for a trans,
http://www.3800performance.com/Merch...roduct_Count=0
is this a good trans. its more 'my priced'

I would like 325ish whp. is this do able any where near my price limit?


Thanks for your input and patience guys. i appreciate it.

 

Honestly, if you thought the 3400 was quick, then you'll be VERY satisfied with a mildly modded L67. Mid-high 13's in the quarter mile will put a smile on your face every time - trust me, I know from experience.

If you're going to be doing this swap yourself, try to find a GTP that was totalled by a rear end collision. It'll probably be cheaper than $3200...

And for the record, 325 WHP would have you in the mid 12 second range in the 1/4 mile.

 

If you think the stock 3400 is quick, I agree, find a used L67 (which is the 3800 S/C engine) and swap that in. You will gain 60 crank HP and 80 ft lb of torque stock for stock. Then add a few bolt on mods, and you will be MORE than happy with the power. I think this is probably your best bet...it will keep your car reliable (if you are running something close to stock, not overly modded) and it will be WAY WAY cheaper.