You see that ****!? 60* baby! and when i said $700 for the cam, i also included a ballpark figure for new timing chain, felpro gaskets, beer, and anything else you'd wanna replace while your in there. the LIMG gotta be replaced anyways... and while you have that apart, you could easly gasket match your ports, which is a joke if you can go by a dremel. it doesnt take some crazy ability to gasket match intakes. If you can trace a drawing with tracing paper, you could gasket match intakes and heads too.

Man, the effort in swapping a 3800 from a 3400 isnt worth the headache and working out the bugs of swapping in the harness and having all the ABS and BS to work properly, yeah sure, it *might go off without a bang. But odds are, it wont. and then you gotta change motor mounts that go to the rad cratle. BAH! it aint a days work to swap a 3800 in.

The bottom line here, its easier to build off of what you got, not what ya dont. When my monte lays it down on a 5.3 v8 monte, gets better MPG, we'll see who's laughing. The only gain thats being present here from swapping in a 3800 is what comes factory with a S/C (which are always cool) and extra weight. And the posibility of the car turing into a acorn collector.

The Walls are yellow in here. and this thread should be closed.

thanks Dave for laying it down how it is. I've been looking for videos of this thing running!

 

Definitely, with a ton more money- having any professional company do a good head port job is at least $1k, and I bet a set of custom one off headers is easily another grand. I can't imagine how much a reputable shop would charge to do all the custom work you did for the average guy.

Thats what I figured- I was just using that and the hp for a rough comparison purpose of $/hp from the different mods, thats all. Its a lot easier to compare looking at the numbers side by side.

Definitely- if the OP was comfortable porting. Some people are not as comfortable or as good doing their own porting- and you're obviously talking adding a lot of time to the job port matching the heads and LIM. I've seen people port the inlets on M90's with a dremel that looked like a little kid with a file, and that's just making a circle bigger and getting rid of a little step in the inlet. I just don't think its safe to say that anyone could run out and grab a dremel and do a good job porting their heads and intake when its their first time doing something like that. I'd definitely reccomend buying a scrap intake or something from a junkyard first and practicing on that to anyone who wants to try it- better than ruining your heads on your first try.

In your opinion. I'm sure he could get similar power gains from a healthy heads/cam setup with some custom headers like Dave3500Z- but you're talking a lot more money that route.

To keep this thread on track, if you guys want to convince the OP to cam his 3400 (and since we're comparing it to an L67 swap)- why not put down a list of what he would need to get the same power gains, and what kind of price he'd be looking at (ie not assuming he's going to custom weld his own headers together)?

The way I see it, the price of heads and a cam alone would be equal to or greater than the cost of an L67 swap- would it make as much power in that case? Is there another combination of parts (maybe swapping on some 3500 parts?) that could be done to get the same power gain for less? This doesn't have to turn into a flame war like all the other 60 vs 90 topics- we can make a constructive discussion out of this to help not only the OP, but also those who search for info.

Honestly, when I search on here- I don't find much of anything that says what you can do to a 3100, 3400, 3500- even though MANY owners here have those engines. I see a lot of posts just say to 'go to 60degreev6' for info, but why not post it up on here- start a thread for a sticky on how to mod a 60*? and what is the cheapest route to making power the quickest?

I've never done a 6th gen- but as far as I've heard, as long as they use an SS engine bay harness from the same year, it should all plug in (obviously minus the 2 plug L67 swap adaptor harness which is a breeze to add).

I've never heard of ABS not working properly. I could've swore the ABS plug came through a different part of the firewall?

You use what comes on the new engine- and the radiator mounts are the same, use the ones that come with the new engine- its just simple bolting it on. If you can't handle tightening 2 bolts on each lower engine mount, and tightening 2 bolts on each upper engine mount, then you shouldn't be working on engines- much less taking your heads off for an intake port matching.

Definitely not. I bet I could do it again in a day if I had to, but for a newb, of course not. I'd budget at least a full day for a cam swap- and I'd budget at least two or three for an engine swap if its your first time. However, since the L36 came in the 6th gen- and the L67 is a L36 with a different top end- all of the normal L36 parts work- radiator hoses, heater hoses, etc etc- engine wiring. Its all a direct plug in, bolt in deal. Its not like you're trying to swap in a Viper V10.

As I said- for you guys that are so adamant that the 60* has such a great aftermarket, make a thread about the cost of various mods, and what to do to get so much horsepower. For this thread, maybe make a list of what parts he can buy to gain as much as he would off a stock L67 swap.

Engine vs engine- I'd bet Dave's 3500 is just about equal to a 5.3 (taking the transmission loss and vehicle weight out of the equation)- so whats the point? Any engine can be modded to make as much power as you want- its about cost effectiveness (and ease of following a simple plan for most modders who don't want to venture off making custom parts and stuff on their own).

Not knowing what mods you have- you racing a bone stock car with a car that I'm assuming you have a lot of time and work into is a fair race? When you let the LS4 guy do his own modding- then what? Like for example- I bet my monte could beat an older stock viper and get better mpg- but, if the viper were as heavily modded as I am, I'd get wasted.

Extra weight on the drive wheels isn't a bad thing- look at pickup trucks.

The thing being presented here is hp/dollar, and to an extent ease of modding. He would get a massive power increase off the bat- and then also have access to a bunch of cheap, simple bolt ons to easily add another 60+ horsepower. Thats how factory boosted cars are.

Sure doing a full engine swap is a good bit of work- but being that its a bolt in, plug in deal- its not that terrible. But he gains not only power, but a lot longer life on his engine too by buying something with lower mileage on it (I think the one he was looking at had 32k on it)- so how much is that extra engine lifespan worth to you?

Why? Why not post up some kind of alternative here for the OP and those who search for this thread? The only thing you guys posted were:

-you can make a lot of power with a 3500, a manual trans, a cam, custom one off headers, and a lot of custom porting work
-that if he spends $700 on a cam install, he will gain 25 horsepower
-that he could swap a 3500 for $600 and gain 20 horsepower

My whole point this whole time has been- $700 is very close to engine swap price range- for him to be able to make almost triple the power gain, and much longer engine life. Give the guy some sort alternatives with his current engine if you guys are so sure that it is the best route to go.

 

Ok, so I spent some time looking at the wot-tech site. Let's imagine the customer has a 3400 like the OP and wants to begin building a performance engine using his stock 3400.

Here is the most well rounded comprehensive package I could find for a car still intended to use on the street, not considering doing a bottom end rebuild for race pistons or anything too crazy like that.

-3400 street/strip heads $1310 w/ bolts and gaskets
-Double roller timing chain $240
-3400 strip performance cam $470 w/ matching pushrods
-3400 competition upper/lower manifold package $325 matched for the TB
-65mm TB assembled $293 assembled w/ coolant bypass
-headers? I couldn't find any kind of ported exhaust manifolds or headers on the site
-pcm tune

That comes out to $2638 + misc expenses for extra gaskets, fluids, and a pcm tune since you're obviously not going to run a setup like this on a stock PCM.

What kind of horsepower do people generally put down with a complete package like this?



To give a comparison, lets say he got that L67 engine for $1k, another $150 for the engine harness, another $35 for the L67 adaptor harness, (he would need a pcm tune to get it running too b/c of running his old trans, but I'll get to that in a second)- so we start at $1185 + PCM.

Add to that some 104 autolite plugs $12, 180 tstat $10, 3.4" press on pulley $70, pulley puller rental $30, new SC belt for correct length $24, 1.9 modded stock rockers $275, SSAC headers $350 (would be more if he needed a cat for his area), ZZP PCM (adjusted for his engine/trans combo, and cat code delete) $140, Wizair CAI box $250 (could save a lot doing a custom FWI, but that would be more custom work-I'm trying to stick to basic bolt on stuff here that the average person could install).

That's $1161 in performance mod (completely ignoring the fact that the headers, rockers, and intake are very common used on the forums). So ~$2350, + fluids and misc, in total for right around 300 crank horsepower and running a high 13/low 14 and you wouldn't even have cracked into the engine yet. You'll still have stock reliability with a stock timing chain, stock springs, etc.

 

ok, well, i'll start this off then.
with a 3400 block, you can make it a hybrid by swapping the top end from a 3500.
3500 heads, in regular casting flow just as much as fully race ported 3400 heads. they also have a better combustion chamber design. if your smart you could have this top end for 200 300$ you can send it off to wot tech to get ported for $619.99 for the heads. includes new seals, springs retainers. plus your custom length pushrods $139. and $229.99 for both intakes to be ported
this is a optional route of course. as it was said,
224 WHP was produced with a cammed 3400, larger TB, exhaust and headers.
now imagine how much more could be achived with just gasket matched ported 3500 intakes and heads. thats $619.99 and the intakes done $229.
now, Now, NOW, headers will be avalible ceramic coated for $599, and those have been proven to add up to i think 25 hsp with out a tune. with suppourting mods. porting, cam, TB.


now a half *** summery:
mild setup.
Cam 330
gaskets 120-150
timing set 50
TB (a lx5 swap could be done) 50 for adaptor plate, and 15 for the TB, or 229 for the bullit TB. so bottom line we'll say 65
headers 599.99
i'm gonna guess this will get you ball parked around 210 whp. on a standard application, from the stock 145. this is a guess for the auto setup.
total:$1130
and if you wanted to go bigger with porting everything up, and 3500 top end
620 for porting
200 for heads
100 for intakes
230 for porting intakes
total:1150
and thats going to land in the ball park of 250-260 minimum WHP. all of that involves no bottom end work, pistons are $575 and boosting the CR will add ALOT of HP

Now i appologize if some prices and estimated HSP are off by a hand full.

 

Thanks for adding some nice tech info to the post!

So $1130 for ~210whp and $2280 for ~250whp- both seem like pretty comparable options both in price and hp to what I posted above- thats exactly what I was looking for.

Out of curiosity- who sells those headers? I've had members ask me where they can find headers for their 3100/3400- and I never knew they even existed. Also- if they fit the 3500- you should talk to monte07, he was going to try and get milzy to start making sets. Is there anyone who does any sort of exhaust manifold porting- or is it headers or nothing?

 

Exhaust manifold porting on the 3x00 engines is a waste of time, you can hog them out all day but the overall design is a limitation in itself.


Now that S&S headers is shut down, i think you can still get 3x00 headers from Pacesetter and i know you can from wot-tech however they are only making sets for L and J bodies right now. I'm sure he'll move on to other platforms when the demand is there.


I realized in this thread that i charge way too little for port work considering the work involved. I'm going to have to revise my prices.

 

its actually 65 WHP gain. for a cam to work more effectivly, it should have suppourting mods, so thats why a 25 hp statment was made from just a cam.

forcedfirbird on 60* makes these headers, and he will be moving on to making headers for the w body soon, but he's busy finishing off current header orders, engine builds, and customers cars. so you can imagine he's awfully busy. His headers are VERY nice, equil length, tig welded dougnut sealed units.
http://wot-tech.com/shop/all/beretta.../prod_251.html

the pacesetter headers are junk. I searched them on a few different forums, and i couldnt find ONE, not even one positive comment about them.
GARBAGE-
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PSM-70-1207/
I even talked to a rep on the phone about the quality behind them, he didnt have much to say, aside he has headman headers on his trucks and cars LOL.
I just listed up the prices that Ben charges lol