Mod Guide: General mod plan for 3800s
#21
10-23-2008, 04:39 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
Stage 2
To go to the next level (2), you need to consider headers, a camshaft, rockers, or our SS intercooler. You don't need all of these things, just one of them. By adding one of these mods you can make a lot more power and drop in pulley size. The stock transmission is still ok but you'll want to add our shift kit.
I don't have a dyno so the rest is speculation from what I've read as far as HP gains are concerned. I will increment these in cost and difficulty as well. At this point you will be opening the engine up and should have experience, a friend who has done this before (successfully) or not be afraid to mess things up. If your good at tinkering with things, you should feel safe for the first 2 choices.
Stage 2
The lowest cost option is probably rockers and these are a great mod. 1.7 to 1.9 will give you around 15-25 HP increase for between $200 to $500, takes about 2 hours to install, and will drop your KR slightly. If you plan on doing a cam in the future, study first so you don't waste your cash. Anything above 1.75 lift seems to be a problem depending on your cam.
The next would be the Intercooler. This will give you an extra few HP's for you since the air will be cooler, but if you're having any KR problems with the above pulleys they are now history. Either go with a Short Stack (SS) / Half Sized Intercooler for about $550 or a Full Sized Intercooler which is in the neighborhood of $1,000 - $1,300.
Here you will be able to drop a pulley size or two without problems and depending on your car be running a 3.0" pulley.
You should be definitely be reading others posts and talking to others about their experiences before buying the intercooler or going further as with the above mentioned throttle body.
Ported Exhaust Manifolds (PEM's) or even the Powerlog should also be considered at this point. Headers will raise your HP but at the cost of Low End Torque. Those should be saved once you do the cam upgrade below.
************************************************** *****
This is the spot where you jump from being a beefed up daily driver to a monster. Any modifications below are going to seriously drop the life and reliability of your engine and transmission. GM really didn't design for these engines to be pushing out this much power and torque. Any mods listed below are for people that have fat wallets or are hardcore. ************************************************** *****
Cam - This is where we separate the men from the boys. Other than a pulley, here is where the HP is depending on your choices. From what I've read, engine life will drop sharply at this point, don't expect to run reliably for another 100,000 miles without problems but if you have the money for the cam, add ons, and install you won't be worried about it. The add ons you will be looking at include: new pushrods, springs, and miscellaneous parts for the cam install. Expect gains from 25 HP with a mild cam to reports of 50 HP with a wild one (see 300+ WHP) at an install cost of $600 to $1500 depending if you can do this yourself or need it professionally done. This is by no means an easy feat and should not be attempted by a novice, have a professional engine builder take on this job and preferably one that specializes in race engines. Look into Comp Cams and Overkill for brand names. Comp is all over the place and has been a reliable company for years; Overkill is kind of on it's own here and not popular in the common online stores but I've heard they do outstanding work and should NOT be ignored. Check them out at: http://getoverkilled.ca
Headers are now in the mix. Choose a reliable company like SLP or The Other Guy's (TOG's) and purchase on your HP desires; $700ish entry level if you are going to cut off right about here, or $1000+ Extremes if you plan on continuing with some serious upgrades. Note: As of this writting I haven't read enough reviews and opinions on: S&S and Pacesetter to recommend them right now.
Something not mentioned yet is tires. At this point you'll be like a dog trying to hookup on a hardwood floor - you'll be spinning tires, wearing them out, making smoke, and not going anywhere fast. There is no question you will need to get performance tires at this level and probably should have done so by the end of Stage 1. If you have everything above accomplished the OEM tires simply can't cut it.
To go to the next level (2), you need to consider headers, a camshaft, rockers, or our SS intercooler. You don't need all of these things, just one of them. By adding one of these mods you can make a lot more power and drop in pulley size. The stock transmission is still ok but you'll want to add our shift kit.
I don't have a dyno so the rest is speculation from what I've read as far as HP gains are concerned. I will increment these in cost and difficulty as well. At this point you will be opening the engine up and should have experience, a friend who has done this before (successfully) or not be afraid to mess things up. If your good at tinkering with things, you should feel safe for the first 2 choices.
Stage 2
The lowest cost option is probably rockers and these are a great mod. 1.7 to 1.9 will give you around 15-25 HP increase for between $200 to $500, takes about 2 hours to install, and will drop your KR slightly. If you plan on doing a cam in the future, study first so you don't waste your cash. Anything above 1.75 lift seems to be a problem depending on your cam.
The next would be the Intercooler. This will give you an extra few HP's for you since the air will be cooler, but if you're having any KR problems with the above pulleys they are now history. Either go with a Short Stack (SS) / Half Sized Intercooler for about $550 or a Full Sized Intercooler which is in the neighborhood of $1,000 - $1,300.
Here you will be able to drop a pulley size or two without problems and depending on your car be running a 3.0" pulley.
You should be definitely be reading others posts and talking to others about their experiences before buying the intercooler or going further as with the above mentioned throttle body.
Ported Exhaust Manifolds (PEM's) or even the Powerlog should also be considered at this point. Headers will raise your HP but at the cost of Low End Torque. Those should be saved once you do the cam upgrade below.
************************************************** *****
This is the spot where you jump from being a beefed up daily driver to a monster. Any modifications below are going to seriously drop the life and reliability of your engine and transmission. GM really didn't design for these engines to be pushing out this much power and torque. Any mods listed below are for people that have fat wallets or are hardcore. ************************************************** *****
Cam - This is where we separate the men from the boys. Other than a pulley, here is where the HP is depending on your choices. From what I've read, engine life will drop sharply at this point, don't expect to run reliably for another 100,000 miles without problems but if you have the money for the cam, add ons, and install you won't be worried about it. The add ons you will be looking at include: new pushrods, springs, and miscellaneous parts for the cam install. Expect gains from 25 HP with a mild cam to reports of 50 HP with a wild one (see 300+ WHP) at an install cost of $600 to $1500 depending if you can do this yourself or need it professionally done. This is by no means an easy feat and should not be attempted by a novice, have a professional engine builder take on this job and preferably one that specializes in race engines. Look into Comp Cams and Overkill for brand names. Comp is all over the place and has been a reliable company for years; Overkill is kind of on it's own here and not popular in the common online stores but I've heard they do outstanding work and should NOT be ignored. Check them out at: http://getoverkilled.ca
Headers are now in the mix. Choose a reliable company like SLP or The Other Guy's (TOG's) and purchase on your HP desires; $700ish entry level if you are going to cut off right about here, or $1000+ Extremes if you plan on continuing with some serious upgrades. Note: As of this writting I haven't read enough reviews and opinions on: S&S and Pacesetter to recommend them right now.
Something not mentioned yet is tires. At this point you'll be like a dog trying to hookup on a hardwood floor - you'll be spinning tires, wearing them out, making smoke, and not going anywhere fast. There is no question you will need to get performance tires at this level and probably should have done so by the end of Stage 1. If you have everything above accomplished the OEM tires simply can't cut it.
#22
10-23-2008, 04:39 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
Stage 3
300+ WHP
To go over 300WHP the first thing you should think about is the transmission. To keep it reliable long term you will need our performance transmission with converter, 4340 input shaft, single chain conversion and 245mm flex plate. Total cost on that trans is $3065. That will give you a transmission that will hold up to continued abuse with mid three hundred WHP.
Stage 3
Can't argue with this. Transmission reliability can even be a concern at the Stage 1 level and even more at Stage 2 depending on how many miles you have on the car and how it has been abused. At this level, you are going to have to suck it up and drop some major cash down and not see a HP reward for it. By going with the lower gears though you can see some quicker 1/4 mile time slips at a loss of gas mileage. 2.93 gears are stock, the higher you go the quicker at the line you will be but at the cost of top end. Popular choices are: 3.29 and 3.69.
To get the car over 300WHP you can use our XP cam package on stock heads with our SS intercooler and 2.9" pulley or stage 2 intercooler and 2.8" pulley (snout machining required for smaller. You'll need our fuel pump rewire, alternator rewire, 42# injectors, stage 1 throttle body, water pump under drive pulley, TOG headers, ported blower with inlet and outlet done, machined intake, colder Tstat, Autolite 103 plugs, Wizair box, XP cam file PCM and full exhaust. This setup will yield mid 12 sec passes depending on whether you use slicks or drag radials or street tires (low 12's to high 12's)
Like it says, get everything I've discussed before and add: headers, ported blower, alerternator rewire, 42# injectors, machined intake, and open exhaust and 160* T-stat.
This is a trivial area for pulley sizes. The quality of the engine block, pistons, and general quality of engine parts come into play. You will be doing a lot of trial and error scanning and programming to get to the 2.5" pulley. Below this gains are very slight due to the amount of heat generated. Time and money might be better spent following the below upgrades.
Machined heads should also be included in here along with upgrading to either a turbo (see below), a M112 Supercharger swap (found at http://www.intense-racing.com under Induction category, or a Whipple Supercharger swap (found at http://www.wbodystore.com/grandprix/ under Superchargers. As of right now it's all speculation of which kit is the best to go with for performance and reliability. You will need to swap to a more efficiant supercharger than the M90 at this point going to the more common M112 or the Whipple if you choose to stay the supercharger road.
300+ WHP
To go over 300WHP the first thing you should think about is the transmission. To keep it reliable long term you will need our performance transmission with converter, 4340 input shaft, single chain conversion and 245mm flex plate. Total cost on that trans is $3065. That will give you a transmission that will hold up to continued abuse with mid three hundred WHP.
Stage 3
Can't argue with this. Transmission reliability can even be a concern at the Stage 1 level and even more at Stage 2 depending on how many miles you have on the car and how it has been abused. At this level, you are going to have to suck it up and drop some major cash down and not see a HP reward for it. By going with the lower gears though you can see some quicker 1/4 mile time slips at a loss of gas mileage. 2.93 gears are stock, the higher you go the quicker at the line you will be but at the cost of top end. Popular choices are: 3.29 and 3.69.
To get the car over 300WHP you can use our XP cam package on stock heads with our SS intercooler and 2.9" pulley or stage 2 intercooler and 2.8" pulley (snout machining required for smaller. You'll need our fuel pump rewire, alternator rewire, 42# injectors, stage 1 throttle body, water pump under drive pulley, TOG headers, ported blower with inlet and outlet done, machined intake, colder Tstat, Autolite 103 plugs, Wizair box, XP cam file PCM and full exhaust. This setup will yield mid 12 sec passes depending on whether you use slicks or drag radials or street tires (low 12's to high 12's)
Like it says, get everything I've discussed before and add: headers, ported blower, alerternator rewire, 42# injectors, machined intake, and open exhaust and 160* T-stat.
This is a trivial area for pulley sizes. The quality of the engine block, pistons, and general quality of engine parts come into play. You will be doing a lot of trial and error scanning and programming to get to the 2.5" pulley. Below this gains are very slight due to the amount of heat generated. Time and money might be better spent following the below upgrades.
Machined heads should also be included in here along with upgrading to either a turbo (see below), a M112 Supercharger swap (found at http://www.intense-racing.com under Induction category, or a Whipple Supercharger swap (found at http://www.wbodystore.com/grandprix/ under Superchargers. As of right now it's all speculation of which kit is the best to go with for performance and reliability. You will need to swap to a more efficiant supercharger than the M90 at this point going to the more common M112 or the Whipple if you choose to stay the supercharger road.
#23
10-23-2008, 04:40 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
Stage 4
400+ WHP
To make the serious power, you need to change power adders. Turbos are where it seems to be at. Nothing seems to produce the gains that a turbo setup does. A pretty stout trans is required at 15 pounds of intercooled turbo boost, but that will give over 400WHP no problem with 11 second track times. An intercooled Stattama kit starts around $4500, but you will need some fueling upgrades. Our Walbro fuel pump, 65# injectors, and fuel pump rewire are needed along with PCM programming for them.
Can't argue with this statement at this time. ZZP holds the world record for the fastest FWD W-Body and they are using a turbo and that's the bottom line. On the flip side, there seem to also be more people running either ZZP turbo's or the Cartuning turbo advertised here. There simply isn't enough data to support the Whipple due to its low popularity and alleged negative politics with the Club GP group. Save that for another topic.
I'd also like to point out that the turbo will save you quite a bit in gas mileage. It's much more efficient than a supercharger as it has no parasitic loss and relies on exhaust fumes to power it. With the amount invested in your engine at this point, you might not care but over the years it will add up. If you have a Natural Aspirating (NA) car go with a turbo; if you already have a supercharger, it is going to depend on your wallet, if you have a pride issue switching from a supercharger to a turbo. If some supercharger diehard gives you hell about being a sellout, becoming a ricer with a turbo, etc - just remember they are being an idiot and have them meet you on the track to settle it.
The transmission needed for 400WHP runs 3 grand (our base transmission with upgraded converter, input shaft, 3.29 gears, single chain) To go past 450WHP you need to upgrade to the GM racing 1" chain, 300M input shaft and our pump shaft which adds $700 to the transmission cost.
Zooomer
Owner ZZPerformance.com
Once again, make sure the transmission is beefcake at this point and it would be a good idea to have this all taken care of way back at the 300 HP level. You can also expect to have very low reliability at this point. Expect problems with headgaskets and other leaks.
To wrap up, the Whipple seems to be the only answer to bring the supercharger back into reign as king if someone has the funds and builds their car up as much as the ZZP car. Only time will tell here but it looks like the M112 swap has been maxed out in the high 9's.
I will try to modify and update this post as new idea's come in to give the best and most accurate list possible.
400+ WHP
To make the serious power, you need to change power adders. Turbos are where it seems to be at. Nothing seems to produce the gains that a turbo setup does. A pretty stout trans is required at 15 pounds of intercooled turbo boost, but that will give over 400WHP no problem with 11 second track times. An intercooled Stattama kit starts around $4500, but you will need some fueling upgrades. Our Walbro fuel pump, 65# injectors, and fuel pump rewire are needed along with PCM programming for them.
Can't argue with this statement at this time. ZZP holds the world record for the fastest FWD W-Body and they are using a turbo and that's the bottom line. On the flip side, there seem to also be more people running either ZZP turbo's or the Cartuning turbo advertised here. There simply isn't enough data to support the Whipple due to its low popularity and alleged negative politics with the Club GP group. Save that for another topic.
I'd also like to point out that the turbo will save you quite a bit in gas mileage. It's much more efficient than a supercharger as it has no parasitic loss and relies on exhaust fumes to power it. With the amount invested in your engine at this point, you might not care but over the years it will add up. If you have a Natural Aspirating (NA) car go with a turbo; if you already have a supercharger, it is going to depend on your wallet, if you have a pride issue switching from a supercharger to a turbo. If some supercharger diehard gives you hell about being a sellout, becoming a ricer with a turbo, etc - just remember they are being an idiot and have them meet you on the track to settle it.
The transmission needed for 400WHP runs 3 grand (our base transmission with upgraded converter, input shaft, 3.29 gears, single chain) To go past 450WHP you need to upgrade to the GM racing 1" chain, 300M input shaft and our pump shaft which adds $700 to the transmission cost.
Zooomer
Owner ZZPerformance.com
Once again, make sure the transmission is beefcake at this point and it would be a good idea to have this all taken care of way back at the 300 HP level. You can also expect to have very low reliability at this point. Expect problems with headgaskets and other leaks.
To wrap up, the Whipple seems to be the only answer to bring the supercharger back into reign as king if someone has the funds and builds their car up as much as the ZZP car. Only time will tell here but it looks like the M112 swap has been maxed out in the high 9's.
I will try to modify and update this post as new idea's come in to give the best and most accurate list possible.
#24
10-23-2008, 04:44 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
Wow, looking back it is amazing how many things we've learned as a community in 2 years.
We can end the turbo vs supercharger discussion completely.... Whipple or not. Turbo is the way to go.
Canned PCM's just suck in general. Much better to pay a knowledgeable tuner in the community $100 and have them dial you in to get a solid if conservative tune. At least they can get rid of the knock and you will be much safer.
We've got some much cheaper header options available and we know the stock bottom ends are just friggin awesome!!!
We can end the turbo vs supercharger discussion completely.... Whipple or not. Turbo is the way to go.
Canned PCM's just suck in general. Much better to pay a knowledgeable tuner in the community $100 and have them dial you in to get a solid if conservative tune. At least they can get rid of the knock and you will be much safer.
We've got some much cheaper header options available and we know the stock bottom ends are just friggin awesome!!!
#25
10-23-2008, 05:05 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
Wow... still info on a throttle body spacer too. That has been proven useless after a few years of additional testing.
#26
10-24-2008, 09:24 AM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
Thanks for adding that, we've got a nice chunk of helpful technical info in here now.
#27
11-05-2008, 02:21 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
Excellent guide! I'm running just about everything you mention (except rockers) in your guide and I have a couple specific questions that you could maybe add to your guide. Do I need to gap my 104's? If so, how do you know how much of a gap? When I got tuned I was told I am near maxing out my fuel pump and that I should upgrade to a better fuel pump if I go for rockers. Is that common? I had my shifting tightened when I got tuned and it is pretty nice, would it be worth it to also get a shift kit?
My Mods: 3" d/p, PLOG, Autolite 104's, CAI, Ported LIM, Ported S/C, 3.4" pulley, N* TB, 180* T-stat, custom tuned.
My Mods: 3" d/p, PLOG, Autolite 104's, CAI, Ported LIM, Ported S/C, 3.4" pulley, N* TB, 180* T-stat, custom tuned.
#28
11-05-2008, 06:11 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
I am still on a stock fuel pump... though I have 65# injectors.
Your fuel pump is fine. Get the fuel filter changed, and buy the ZZP fuel pump rewire kit so that you get better and more reliable voltage at the pump.
Bumpin.... great info.. hopefully it helps people know what they want, and what to do to get it.
Your fuel pump is fine. Get the fuel filter changed, and buy the ZZP fuel pump rewire kit so that you get better and more reliable voltage at the pump.
Bumpin.... great info.. hopefully it helps people know what they want, and what to do to get it.
#29
11-05-2008, 09:01 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
I'm running just about everything you mention (except rockers) in your guide and I have a couple specific questions that you could maybe add to your guide. Do I need to gap my 104's? If so, how do you know how much of a gap?
I believe my basic bolt on gtp on 104s is running 0.045". I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I haven't had problems with it either way.
When I got tuned I was told I am near maxing out my fuel pump and that I should upgrade to a better fuel pump if I go for rockers. Is that common?
I had my shifting tightened when I got tuned and it is pretty nice, would it be worth it to also get a shift kit?
#30
11-06-2008, 08:29 PM
RE: General mod plan for 3800s
ORIGINAL: Nocturnx
Do I need to gap my 104's? If so, how do you know how much of a gap?
Do I need to gap my 104's? If so, how do you know how much of a gap?
With the mods I'm running I gap at .055.
At the .045 listed above you will have next to garaunteed spark, but waste fuel. At .055 I have just a few more misfires at WOT than stock but good gas mileage. Unnoticeable misfires with standard driving.