thinking of going oll motor with my 04' N/A Monte...Any recommendations on parts for quality, reliability, and most power? Please be specific as I am not too familiar with the little stuff like ratio's and such

 

ZZPerformance.com has several upgrades for 3800 motors. Wbodystore.com also has aftermarket parts.

If you really want to go all motor and have a serious build, you're probably going to be in the mid 13's in the 1/4 mile - and that's a lot of money you're going to have to dump into that motor. Aftermarket camshaft, port and polish everything - heads, LIM, UIM, get a larger throttle body, and headers. Those mods probably will probably only get you to high 13's.

 

A good tune, not a canned tune, from someone with a tuner (that knows what they are doing) will get all of those parts you're replacing/adding to play together nicely.

 

I'm assuming if you're asking about 'most power' you want to do a fully built NA setup. Because obviously you're already 'all motor' if you don't have a power adder.

In my opinion, trying to get the 'most power' out of a NA 3800 is a waste of time and money. Clubgp has a dyno list of the top dynos for various 3800 configurations:

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.as...mode=1&smode=1

To start off with, on a stock camshaft, here is the list: (keep in mind you should be about 160 whp stock)

Keep in mind the top 2 on that list had a pretty good chunk of mods done. So that means if you go all out on a stock camshaft, you will likely make less power than a bone stock L67, and obviously be slower. That is pretty depressing- so obviously you need to change the cam if you're going all out.

4/9 of those cars make equal to or less than a stock L67- almost half the list! Also keep in mind that Wes Blair was (fully?) sponsored by Intense Racing- and there was a good bit of money in that car, and even it makes barely more power than a basic bolt on L67 would.


To be fair, NA 3800 modding has been almost completely dead for almost 5 years, and as far as I know, no one has ever done a bored out stroker build running really high compression (the ZZP car would probably be the closest)- but I think its mostly because they're scared that they are going to be disappointed in the hp/$ ratio. Doing a hardcore stroker with custom pistons for really high compression means you'll probably end up with almsot $5k in the bottom end by the time all the machine shop work is done. Then, NA cars need a more aggressive cam to make big power which is less street friendly than a turbo or SC car. So you can easily wrap up another $1500 or more in your heads/cam/springs/chain setup. Then add another $750 or so for an HV3 and some headers, another couple hundred for a ported throttle body.

In the end- how much more power are you really going to make than the current record? I really do think with that whole mod list and some good tuning that you may be able to close in on 300 whp- but look at how much money you have dumped into it- you've got almost a $10k setup when you add some trans mods and a high stall converter to match the cam. You end up with a setup that gets crummy gas mileage, and isn't overly street friendly due to the big cam, high stall converter, and high compression requiring premium or E85 depending how high you go.

There is one reason why every single person on that NA record list has either demodded and sold their car, or went to boost (may be 1 or 2 exceptions)- that reason is, with how cheap and easy it is to do a simple top swap to bolt on a supercharger off an L67- its a bolt on, plug in deal and the hard parts can be had for $500 nowadays (obviously you still need fluids and gaskets). So for about the price of a cam/springs/timing chain set- which will only add 10-20 whp by itself, you add a quick 40 horsepower.

The other thing that did in the NA modding scene were the turbo kits- now they can be had under $3000- and can blow away even the supercharged setups with fewer mods- and not even having to touch the internals of the engine- leaving the bottom end stock reliable.

Here are some comparison numbers for supercharged records:
and the stock cam supercharged record:
thats a 70 whp difference over the absolute highest NA record- and the NA car had a ton more mods

and some turbo records for further comparison:
The downside with NA modding is that these engines are low displacement (ie you're not going to stroke it out to 400 cid), do not have any higher compression/performance factory pistons (9.4:1 is it, that is made it run on regular fuel), and has heads and an intake manifold that are not really designed for making big peak power (the heads can be ported to change that a bit, but you're stuck with the intake unless you have one custom hand made).

I hope that gives you some insight- its hard to watch people spend that kind of money and still have a car that puts down little more than a stock L67. I think NA modding is ok if you just plan to do a few minor mods to pick up a couple horsepower- but IMO once you start considering spending over a grand in performance mods, a supercharged top swap should be a no brainer.

 

Wow bumpin, you are my hero... nuff said haha

 

Correction: 165whp stock.

I'm the TOP guy on the STOCK CAM list and I spent about $2,500 to hold that record, without headers or any trans work other than a shift-kit. I dynoed only 193 whp, but, I also dynoed 262ft. of TORQUE! I am still N/A and I beat MODDED blower cars ALL the time up to 40mph on the street. I am still planing on headers and milled heads for 202whp. Remember that after you do the quarter mile and drive back onto public streets Turbos have LOTS of lag and are ALWAYS thirsty, while blowers also have some LOW rpm lag and constant parasetic loss that again leads to much lower MPG than N/A. With gas prices increasing to $4.00+ a gallon(again), guess who really will come out ahead for every dollar spent. Not the F/I people. I talked with a guy who installed a cartuning turbo-kit and we figured that for driving just 17,000mi a year, he was spending $1,700 more a year in gas than me($141 EXTRA a month). I obviously hold my own with stock L67 cars and have LOTS of green left in my wallet. Oh, and I am planning on upgrading to 11.3:1 compression ZZP aluminum heads sometime in 2012, DynoSim5 software says an increase of 21hp & 17tq, just for grins. And it will still be a daily driver, saving enough money in gas to almost buy a blower or turbo kit, EVERY year, even in Chicago's lake effect winters. AND THATS A NO-BRAINER!

 

not to cause any offense here christophero1973 but i think your post was exactly what bumpin was talking about. youre talking about putting down less than 200hp with 2500 invested, and beating modded blower cars to 40mph on the street. that would be all well and good if we were talking about racing people in the 1/16th mile, but on the street its at least an 1/8th mile. i would think it sucked if i put money like that into my car and then got blown away once the car next to me hooked. i mean even with milled heads and 11.3:1 compression your only talking 223hp my math might be off, but thats still under 300 crank hp. personally i dont think it a worth while investment. i applaud your dedication, but i think theres far easier, cost effective, and more efficient ways of reaching those numbers.

 

First off, 5 hp, who cares, it can vary that much car to car.

Also, 141/month is bogus.

17000 miles/year, thats 1416.7 miles a month.
You get 30mpg in your NA car. Thats 47.2 gallons used.
He gets 23, depends how much he likes getting in the boost. Thats 61.5 gallons a month.

14.3 gallons a month, thats not even close to 141 dollar range. If if you say its city driving, the difference will probably be even less.

Also, mabye your getting the lead on those s/c and turbo cars because you can actually hook up.

 

Indeed. Forced induction + FWD = Traction issues.

 

X2

I know that my setup has some lag until around 3k rpm, but even then, how long are you going to be under that? For me at the most it's a split second so lag is not a real issue. Also, all out NA builds start to suck up your fuel economy and 11.3:1 cr is going to force you to run at LEAST 93 octane if not more. The highest NA build that I've heard of put down 271whp in an f-body and that was with thousands spent on his setup.

Now look at my Monte. I'm on that NA list so I know what I'm talking about. I had spent hundreds on that setup along with two seperate dyno tunes and maxed my setup out at 222whp. Then I spent $1800 for my CSC kit and instantly went to 325whp at 5500 rpm while the L67 injectors were at 110%. I gained 103whp on a setup that needs to be finished for not that much money. If I had spent that on the NA setup, I might have gained 15whp instead.

That's why people like me stopped doing the NA thing. Instead of shooting for 13's or maybe squeaking out a high 12, I'm now aiming for 11's.