adding a cam isnt that difficult. its to each there own. there, i said it lol. like i also said, just get one of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9XAC...layer_embedded

 

Dave had 275whp with an NA 3500 in a cavalier.

 

Not trying to start another flame war with you- just curious, do you have a link to the complete mod list, and what trans does he run (I'm assuming if this is a car I've seen pics of before then its a manual- and thus has less drivetrain loss than people on here would have)? Also- any idea on how much money he's got into it?

I would also imagine that the setup is pretty much maxed out as is NA, without getting into real expensive stuff- would I be somewhat correct in that assumption? That is kinda my point- that these engines are small displacement- the heads are limited by fairly small valve flow area being a 2V setup- and there isn't much aftermarket wise you can do about either- so making big power NA isn't overly practical.

I'd also imagine for the kind of money he spent on that NA build that he could've done a IC'd turbo for about the same price and made at least the same power gain with plenty of room to spare for future modding and much more power? (I'm assuming that the bigger turbo 60*'s are making somewhat similar numbers to the bigger turbo 3800's).

 

Gotcha, must insult everyone, not a single person.

 

It's a bone stock 3500 bottom end, ported top end (done by me), Comp cams 26915 springs, 75mm TB, 36lb injectors, home built longtube headers (1 5/8" diameter, 32" long) and a custom ground cam (.539 in/.549 ex, 288/293 advertised duration on a 110 LSA).


The engine build itself cost me less than 2K and made 275 WHP and 259 WTQ on 89 octane. The car ran a 13.07 @ 107 MPH last fall on slicks weighing in at around 2900 lbs with me in it. Search Youtube for "3500z"


bumpin96monte, it's not maxed out. With the excellent port flow of the 3500 top end there is still more to be made. My heads currently flow around 240 cfm @ .5 lift on the intake side.

The engine is going into a '89 Camaro with a 3500 stall and a 4L60E trans this summer. I might push it a little harder after that.




As for the 60 degree leghumpers comment... Regretfully i owned a 3800 once. It did a great job at weighing down the back of my truck last winter. After that i dumped it off at the scrap yard with the rest of it's burnt friends. :p

 

I fixed it for you, didn't mean for it to be derragatory- its just a joke, no need to get all fired up about it.

Those are great numbers for a great price- but I do have a few comments about it that would make those numbers a little different for the 'average person'- one being that you have custom longtube headers- something the average person wouldn't be able to have built under $1k I'd bet; second is- the average person isn't going to do all their own top end porting work- so that will drive the price up, especially in the heads; lastly - you are running a manual transmission- correct? So obviously your #'s will be a couple % higher than someone running a 4t65 (ie comparing a 15% loss to 20% loss would be a 15whp difference). Not trying to discredit you in any way- just saying that those figures (hp and $) won't directly correlate to what the average person will see.

How much did you pay for the 3500 alone- you must've got that pretty cheap, huh?

What other mods do you have planned then? It just seems to me from your mod list that short of going with a more aggressive cam and higher compression pistons, that there wouldn't be a whole lot else you could do to get more power.

It was meant as a joke- I apologize if I offended you two- so I changed it above.



Unfortunately, I do think that this thread has become a bit OT though- we went from comparing a guy wanting to do a cam swap on a 3400 vs a L67 swap (which the OP had been considering) or some sort of turbo kit on his engine to trying to compare a fully built, very custom 3500 setup. For example, bob442 was saying $700 for a 25 hp gain, so a $1000 for a 32k mile L67 for a 60 hp gain is in the same ballpark- albeit with an extra day's labor.

 

I got the 3500 for $610 with 678 miles on it from a local scrap yard.


You are correct in that i did do much of the work myself, however depending on the circle of people "your average person" means different things. In my circle we do engine swaps, porting, trans work, mandrel bent exhaust systems, headers, chassis work, body work, etc...

In the J-body world we are used to the lack of aftermarket parts, if you want something you gotta build it.


Yes, it's a HM282 (Muncie) 5 speed. 15-17% power loss which is much better than an auto trans. it also only weighs 60 lbs.


Stock 3400 swapped 5 speed Jbodies put down 190-200 WHP all day long with a good tune and a good exhaust system. I've watched and tuned several on the rollers. With a mild cam and mild port job we were able to get 224 WHP out of one. There is another cammed 3500 Jbody running around Iowa who is making almost the same power as me and it's daily driven.


The gen3 60v6 is a great engine, I've been in the GM FWD community for a very long time and there has always been this little battle between the 90 and 60 owners. Both engines can be built to make great power. The 90v6 has a more established aftermarket and more people willing to throw money at it. Since it's production has stopped and the 60v6 has taken over in a large amount of GM cars you are going to start seeing us come out of the woodwork.



As for more power, now that my flowbench is working i'm going to touch up my heads, bump the compression up to 10.3:1 with some thinner headgaskets and possibly run a ITB intake if the owner and i can work out a deal. I'm also building new headers since it's now in a RWD app, with a better collector design and better overall system it should pick up some power in the top end.


My 3800 comment was a joke too.. lol

but seriously, it worked great. Much better than sand bags because the ice seems to break them open and make a mess.

 

That's more of a direct comparison to the topic then. You're talking $700 for a cam install for +25hp +??tq (just going by what was said above since I have no clue on cam power gains on the 60's); $600+ parts for a 3500 for +20hp +10 tq; $1000+ parts for an L67 for +60hp +70tq

(I added + parts to the engine swaps since either way you're going to need at least some minor parts). Plus you obviously add reliability with a nearly new engine with either engine swap. Sound about right?

Thats why I said that your hp/$ #'s can't be replicated by any normal person. "Your average person" doesn't mean different things- how many average car guys own or have ready access to a MIG/TIG welder, a mandrel bender, and have porting knowledge and access to a flow bench? (including the skills to operate all of those items)- the answer is very very few- definitely not your average person, or even your average car guy (if you don't believe me, start a thread with a poll on here and see). So its just apples / oranges- redoing your setup for an average person wouldn't be cheap- they'd have an easy $2000 between custom one off headers and just having the cylinder heads professionally ported alone- so I don't really think that kinda stuff is applicable for the OP of the thread.


I wasn't trying to say that you couldn't gain another horsepower- by almost maxed out, I just meant that you're way past the point of major horsepower gains for cheap- you know? You have a really cool setup though- I like unique setups. I must ask though- why limit yourself by sticking NA? I'd imagine with your fab skills and access to so much equipment that you could easily make double the power you've got now with a turbo setup- maybe even take a 60* record for most power?

(maybe you should post up an intro thread with your setup, I'm sure lots of people would like to see it- and it would keep the questions from getting too far OT in this post?)

 

Where are you located Dave??

 

Eastern Iowa..


I gained 120 HP over the GM posted numbers with a cam, headers and port work. That's pretty decent any way you look at it. The OP could do similar if he's willing to spend the cash.


He's got a great flowing top end as it is, putting a decent cam in there to make use of it is a logical way to make more power. Of course he could gain more with any number of other parts but the foundation is there. I'm sure of he joined up over at 60degreev6.com we could help him in the right direction. I've built and helped build lots of these engines, there are 4 in my garage right now.. lol



While i've certainly considered boost, I decided a while back to push this N/A build as far as possible before i went there. I did just finish porting a 3500 top end for a local guy's Beretta. He's shooting for 600+ HP with boost using a HM282 trans. It's a 3400 block, stock cast iron crank, forged H beam rods, forged pistons and a nice boost cam from wot-tech.


FWIW i hold the record for the fastest N/A V6 Jbody, which is sad because i was never able to get a good launch or 60' time. If i could hook up 12's wouldn't have been a problem. I could have daily driven the car too, at one point i was getting 35 MPG on the highway.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8d4cVC0xgU
http://www.youtube.com/user/whitelightning2

Some videos.